Installation of IHOnly Supplied Gaskets & Others

[Grasor]

Hello,

just wanted some advice on your gaskets and some knowledge you May have on head bolts.



1) I bought a full engine set from you, and wanted to know if you recommend the use of permatex or other sealants in conjunction w/ the gaskets you supplied. Otherwise, I'll just install the gaskets w/o anything else and torque to spec.

2) can I reuse the head bolts if they are cleaned? Rocker arm bolts?


3) when I called about gaskets I was told by Mike (I think that's his name) that for my headers I would need to check to see if the header flanges were warped. Depending on their condition it would determine if I use header gaskets or the supplied exhaust manifold gaskets that came in the engine kit. I checked them with a straight edge, and they are not warped. Which type of exhaust gasket is best?


4) do you recommend the use of any sealants or epoxies for the ss core plugs I ordered?


Thanks!
-g

 

[Michael Mayben]

Never use any additional sealing aid on head gaskets, they are high-tek products designed for a one-time torque application and have a teflon coating that aids in initial setup.

As for the other gaskets, various sealants are used to assist in mounting parts to prevent gasket slippage, they require no help in actual "sealability" however. We have addressed this issue many times throughout the threads found in the "engine tech sub-forum. And suitable sealants are addressed where needed/imperative.

No sealants are ever used on soft plugs, but the mating holes must be clean and free of any burrs or distortion.

Head bolts can certainly be re-used if they are extremely clean, same for the rocker bolts except the threads on the rocker bolts do get a sealant to prevent oil or vacuum leakage in some positions. All threaded holes must have threads chased and be clean. Head bolt threads should be doped sparingly with an anti-seize, standard engine assembly practice.

If the header flange(s) are clean, with no distortion/burrs/damage, then the oem-type sheet steel gaskets work just fine. Use anti-seize on the retainer bolt threads however.

You talked to michael dimock at ihon. He is not the same person as me (I'm at a remote location)...but I have greatly assisted in michael's re-education away from the redneck way!

 

[Grasor]

Ok, so to recap for posterity.

gaskets & core plugs

1) don't put anything on the head gaskets...ever.

2) some "helper" sealants can be used on others (I.e. Permatex #2) but only to avoid slippage - use sparingly!

3) do not use any sealants or epoxies for core/freeze plugs (you called them "soft" plugs so I'm extrapolating that this is what you meant since that question wasn't answered elsewhere).

4) it's ok to use a metal exhaust manifold gasket on headers if the headers are not warped.

bolts

1) it's ok to reuse head bolts if they are well cleaned. They should be treated with anti-seize During install.

2) it's ok to reuse rocker assembly bolts if they are cleaned and sealed to prevent leakage.

Mike dimoch

1) no longer follows the ways of the redneck.

Gotcha!

 

[Michael Mayben]

I didn't say that michael d. Doesn't digress on occasion and need some remediation! But Jeff and Darren dam shore kick hiz azz nine times a day to keep him on the right path! And...he's doing really well in learning all the nuances of the ihon way too!

All your bullet points are correctamundo.

The generic term in the engine biz for all the "plugs" used in various locations is..."soft plug" because they are "soft" in relation to the base material they are being installed in. These can take the form of a welch plug or a cup/core plug (they are available for plugging holes of many different depths and therefore available in several different thicknesses depending on counterbore depth.

Many folks have developed their own use of various shop adhesives for different locations, but the general practice is to use nothing unless called for in an assembly instruction/shop manual. Many gaskets in these kits are treated with a pressure/heat reactive coating that cures once the proper conditions are met. This is high-tek stuff that was not available 35+ years ago, the fel-pro "permatorque" head gaskets like you received are examples of that, the blue coloration is a near indistinguishable teflon surface treatment. Any sealant added to those really screws up the "tek"!!

We do use some brand of a "copper-coat" adhesive on the intake manifold gaskets, we've addressed that previously also. That works ok on the shim-type exhaust manifold gaskets also. That stuff is always used on steel shim head gaskets, but not on composition material type.

The use of rtv-type products anywhere around these engines is a real no-no in my world. That shit is only a poor substitute for a bandaid for using a correct gasket, whether a factory gasket or a shop-fabbed gasket from proper material.

 

[RobertC]

ok, so to recap for posterity.

4) it's ok to use a metal exhaust manifold gasket on headers if the headers are not warped.

You probaly should check the "exhaust manifold" surface on the head, also...

If you had your heads worked on at a machine shop, they should have checked it...

 

[Grasor]

I decided to have the heads cleaned up (disassembled, checked, cleaned, etc) so they will check the manifold surface.

I wanted to ask about the core plug kit I bought from IH Parts America. The small concave plug that goes down in the lower right behind the front cover. I removed the old one and then installed this one, I installed it with the concave part facing out (this is the side that is cupped). Was that the right direction? It went in really easy and I'm concerned it could pop out. It's not enough to remove with my fingers, and I didn't want to damage it trying to remove it if I didn't need to.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Michael Mayben]

I decided to have the heads cleaned up (disassembled, checked, cleaned, etc) so they will check the manifold surface.

I wanted to ask about the core plug kit I bought from IH Parts America. The small concave plug that goes down in the lower right behind the front cover. I removed the old one and then installed this one, I installed it with the concave part facing out (this is the side that is cupped). Was that the right direction? It went in really easy and I'm concerned it could pop out. It's not enough to remove with my fingers, and I didn't want to damage it trying to remove it if I didn't need to.

Thanks in advance.

No!

That plug is a welch plug. As described, you have it upside down.

The "dome" goes towards the installer! Then ya take a blunt punch (no sharp edge!!), center the punch in the center of the welch plug, and strike one hard blow to "depress" the center of the pug. That expands it into it's counterbore to create the seal.

That welch plug blanks off one end of an oil gallery. It must seal completely,otherwise there will be a possible loss of oil pressure if it "bleeds".

To remove, you will need to drill a hole in it and shoot in a sheetmetal screw and pull it out with pliers. Then replace with another one, those are commonly found at any auto parts store. Take it with you for a sample, look for the "dorman" assortment/display, you will see at least thirty+ different sizes.

Do not think about using "epoxy" or jbweld to plug that hole with the welch plug in upside down...do it correctly!

 

[Grasor]

That's what I thought I'm really glad I asked though!

If you have time, I'd like to know if there's any special or simply "best" way to install the larger core plugs also.

I was thinking a large diameter socket to evenly knock them in there, but wasn't sure if it was just supposed to flush with the edge or if it needed to recess at all.

And heck, while I'm at it, I found a ton of crud built up behind the front two core plugs when I removed them. Seemed like an inordinate amount to find for an engine w/ only 20,000 miles on it that was supposedly cleaned out at jasper engines when I had it remanufactured and returned. Is that normal?


Thanks Mike!

 

[RobertC]

Look at this thread

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...h/4591-freeze-plugs-questions-basic-tech.html

 

[Michael Mayben]

Here's a new thread that just went up last nite regarding core plugs and their installation:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...eze-plugs-questions-basic-tech.html#post34153

The socket chosen to knock the plug in needs to fit the depression in the plug nicely, but not too tight! If it's too tight, ya May not get the socket back out after the cup plug compresses! And...the plug must be allowed to compress as it enters and then seals the hole. That is why these items are "single use", they conform to each respective casting hole during installation.

Also...I never use any kind of sealant on the plugs, but the hole machined surface must be clean and free of any burrs or damage.

The accumulation of "stuff" behind the front plugs is not normal. My experience tells me that the block was not cleaned properly when rebuilt and was most likely hot-tanked in a production environment. The "bake and blast" cleaning operation is far more effective in removing heavy deposits inside the castings, but it's not used in a "production" engine shop since it's too time consuming and is a multi-step/labor intensive operation. And today's environmental restrictions regarding parts cleaning/prep in general has rendered the old fashioned caustic soda "boil-out" totally ineffective. Kinda like "water-base" solvent which is a total bad joke except when used inside an enclosed/heated washing-cleaning system.

Some of these engines can be a major bitch to clean internally. Even the bake and blast motor castings must have alotta hand work performed inside after they come back from the machine shop. When deposits of "stuff" are not totally removed in the cleaning operation, then the leftover debris simply aggravates the corrosion cycle and May possibly then create an electrolytic action that eats core plugs, heater cores, etc. Fairly rapidly from then on out.

The cup plugs you have for the sides of the engine block and the ends of the heads are not the "deep" plugs, and not the "shallow" plugs, but what I call the "standard" depth plug for engine blocks. These items are manufactured in many "depths" for many different applications on all kinds of castings.

Those get knocked in so that the outer edge is flush with the casting surface. A little below the surface is fine, but the block castings vary tremendously in thickness around those holes so if ya go too deep, there is very little contact between the sealing surface of the plug and the casting machined bore.

 

[Grasor]

Jasper has changed their "process" description page because I remember reading that they do "hot tank" the engine block. I guess that wasn't enough.

The sediment I found does bare a resemblence to very course sand, maybe left over from the casting process? It's a sealed system so unless someone poured dirt into it there shouldn't be this much in there. I took a mini light and checked the side holes and the oil gallery and they were clean. The sediment appears to be collecting up front.

In any event, should I bother to clean it out?

Thanks for the info on the core plug install, looks like I'll be all set after I get a replacement welch plug for the one I installed backwards

 

[Michael Mayben]

jasper has changed their "process" description page because I remember reading that they do "hot tank" the engine block. I guess that wasn't enough.

The sediment I found does bare a resemblence to very course sand, maybe left over from the casting process? It's a sealed system so unless someone poured dirt into it there shouldn't be this much in there. I took a mini light and checked the side holes and the oil gallery and they were clean. The sediment appears to be collecting up front.

In any event, should I bother to clean it out?

Thanks for the info on the core plug install, looks like I'll be all set after I get a replacement welch plug for the one I installed backwards

I'd definitely clean out the debris if you can access it.

If it's dry (or semi-dry) use various picks/probes/etc. To try and break it up and pull out with a shop vac with a homebrew nozzle of some kind.

 

[Grasor]

Gotcha!

For edification, I received this note from a jasper rep regarding the sediment.

thomas,
yes jasper does more than a hot tank on our core parts. We have different cleaning processes that include a hot tank, bake and blast, calluna cleaning process, and scrubbing of parts. I would say your coolant system needs flushed out. The coolant changed with new 50/50 mix of coolant and water. You May have an issue with electrolysis as well. That is an electrical charge that goes through the coolant system causing corrosion. It could be caused by a failing electrical component or not properly grounded vehicle system.


So they either didn't get it all out, or my mix was way off.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Even with the best bake and blast process, you May still find big chunks of mung in the waterjackets that needs to be rooted out. The shit is like concrete to begin with, and the "production" cleaning process simply is not intensive enough to take care of all the issues. Yes, it May work ok on some blocks, but the worst ones need much personal attention, and this is not just on ihc-produced stuff.

Electrolysis in the engine cooling system is a huge issue regarding more "modern" (throwaway) engines that are composite construction (aluminum/magnesium/steel/cast iron/etc. Components in contact with coolant). It's pretty rare to have that issue with old skool stuff but it can happen. Usually caused by poor engine grounding into a non-bonded ground vehicle electrical system. And the use of dex-cool bullshit coolant makes the problem far worse!

I have extensive experience with electrolysis in motor vehicle cooling systems from my days working as a field engineer for a manufacturer of these products.

The kind of accumulation of concretion you see in your waterjackets is not caused by electrolysis. The results of electrolysis are far different and end up with actual portions of mechanical parts missing as in eaten up! Stuff like...steel water pump impellers actually disappearing! Regular cooling system maintenance is needed no matter what coolant or additive package ya might use. The stuff you are seeing is the result of years upon years of neglect that accumulates and was not totally removed in the "rebuild" cleaning/preparation phase. That kind of stuff does not simply "appear" in 20k miles of use if normal glycol coolant was kept in the system in a 50/50 mix. In fact...even with a really heavy or really light coolant/water mix, electrolysis is not an issue.

However, I've delt with a few cases of electrically-active cooling systems in fleets where "ditch water" was being used with no antifreeze at all, and those were water-related. Ditch water means anything from real ditch water on the side of the road...to tap water that was extremely dosed with minerals to the point I would not drink that shit but was actually the local water supply for human consumption. It was about 2 points away from being considered "salt water".

 

[Grasor]

Hey Mike,

I finally got back to workin on the engine and have it flipped over on the stand to check bearing clearances. I have the full gasket kit from IH Parts America which came with a new rear main seal so I figured even though the old one wasn't leaking I should replace it while I'm checking the #5 bearing.

Jasper engines did not do me any favors however, since they appear to have used only silicone in the holes where the rubber plugs go for the rear seal. I'm having a hell of a time getting it all out, at this point I think it's impossible without some special solvent or something.

I don't think I can put the rubber plugs in over top of this stuff, I don't think it will seal. What would you recommend?

 

[Michael Mayben]

Hopefully, jasper only used a small dab of rtv on the "head" of the side seals and the real seals are hidden! That's a standard practice to adhere the head of the side seals to the pan gasket used as "insurance".

If in fact they did fill the cavities with rtv, that is about the most bogus process I've ever encountered! There would never be a reason to do so, the rear main seal set is readily available from suppliers, and folks like jasper buy the actual gasket set contents in bulk, not in kits like we supply. Normally 100 piece lots from corteco or fel-pro, etc.

So...clean the rtv off with a sharp blade, being careful to not let the debris fall into the crankcase. Hopefully you will see the "hole" in the rubber side seal emerge. I then thread a fairly long lag bolt (wood screw thread) into the rubber hole and pull out with pliers or a small slide hammer.

If the cavities are filled with rtv, then you will need to remove the rear main cap and do a careful mechanical cleaning of all sealant debris. Any spray carburetor cleaner will curdle up rtv real quick and make it easy to remove!

 

[Grasor]

Mike if carb cleaner really gets it all out like you say you are a life saver.

I promise, they used only silicone. I had already pulled the main cap off, and it was a real #%!# to do because I couldn't get all the silicone out before hand.

 

[Grasor]

Hey Mike,sorry to keep bothering I'm just having a hell of a time with this today! I got everything cleaned out, took awhile but I did eventually get it.

So now I'm at the part where I put the rear main seal back in then the cap back on.

Thing is, I can't for the life of me get the dang seal over the flexplate flange. Like not at all it's completely blocked. I have the whole thing greased lightly as well as the seal lip itself. I'm installing it with the largest seal lip facing the front of the engine. I've checked the IH manual and their instructions make it sound like it should be easy to do. But I can't seem to even get it started.

I have to tell you I had an impossible time removing The old rear main seal. I could get one side over the flange but not the other. I tried prying on both sides at once and no dice. I eventually got fed up after an hour of this and cut it off carefully with some bolt cutters.

Any ideas? I don't know why the flange would be so big, and I have no idea how they got the rear main on last time.

Of course, it could just be me

edit: I found this thread: the sonjamotor lives! And believe I missed a critical step in engine disassembly. My inexperience made me think the flexplate flange was part of the crank. I wasn't really thinking about it. But after viewing a few pages of that well documented thread, I realize now I was referring to the flexplate adapter...which comes off. Just need to get that spring pin out I guess.

What a long day.....

Edit2: ok, I got it off, the pin of course stays, just need to pry gently on two sides of the adapter and it pops off. I put the seal in just outside of flush w/ the block, anaerobic sealant on the cap and block mating surfaces, greased on the rubber seal surface and the end of the crank, and I'll put the rubber plugs in tomorrow using some copper wire out of a section of household wire.

 

[Michael Mayben]

Dam guud job dude figgerin' this out!

I've been doing a carb and ignition job for guudbuddy toddjo here on the forum all day so he can take his rig and go bag an elk for the larder for us next weekend.

If in fact jasper did that shit work of loading that main cap with rtv, they should be dropped without a parachute over nork next week during that "training exercise". Shit like that is totally irresponsible, if I'd found that I'd determine which plant that motor was done in (they use to have about eight sub-contractor locations), document the whole dam thang, and shove it up their quality assurance group's rectang!

Every time you folks (our member/customers) post regarding difficulty in doing stuff like this, it goes on a list of items/procedures I keep, of what I regard as "simple" tasks that I lose site of being difficult for folks that don't do this for a living. So in the future, we're gonna start up a "how-to" regarding the basic tenets of engine assembly that are general practice on the IH stuff and not regurgitated for chryfordrolet.

So your entire thread is certainly something that rattles the cage around here and we thank you for bringing this up!!

Here's a shot of what I do to install the side seals. This is just a piece of bent 3/16" brass brazing rod, you could use anything similar. The tip is rounded off so that the rod won't put a hole in the end of the side seal. I made this tool about fifteen years ago for doing a similar operation on Ford big blocks but it works even better ion the I-4 and sv motors.

I use hylomar to lather up the rubber seal, though permatex #2 works as well. Also serves to lubricate the rubber so it goes in place real slick and seats immediately. When installed completely, the "flange" on the open end of the side seal shouild protrude slightly above flush. Just before I set the pan and pan gasket in place, I put a dab of hylomar or permatex #2 on the head of the rubber flange. I will not use rtv of any formula anywhere on any motor vehicle I work on, I have a definite policy about that and am rabid about not having the shit around.

This shot shows using transemble which is a lubricant for seal install. This motor never leaked again. But later I decided to start using the hylomar as insurance and a lubricant, hylomar is a fluorescent blue in color and looks like rtv in some pics but I can sure you that in my pics of work that I do, you will never see rtv. But much of what I work on and tear apart has been assembled with rtv and in some cases, that is the root case of the failure (such as lifter galleries that will not load with oil due to rtv blockage).

 

[Michael Mayben]

And here is the side seal installed and lubed with transemble. It's fully seated and the tool is easy to slide right back out of the hole and load onto the other seal for insertion.