head casting #s

Is it ok to use 2 different heads (casting #) on the same engine? My stock head is casting #361 665 c2. I have a remanufactured head with casting #391 933 c1. Near as I can tell they are identical. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
 
Welcome to the forum!

What tha hail izza bridgeport dude scruuin' with a Scout for??? That's Ford country! (I'm from grapevine/southlake!!). They still haulin' rock outta that kuntry or is it all gone??? I guess now all that new natural gazzoil is takin' it's place???

What engine we talkin' here...I can do a reverse lookup/cross reference for some part numbers, but narrow the choices down for me...the print in that cross reference is tinee!!! So gimme a place ta start and I'll git back to ya tomorrow. Jeff May know this right off hiz haid and beat me to the answer!
 
Yep, still haulin' rock...... And drillin' for that gas.... I lived in denton/sanger for awhile. Then came out here in the sticks by the lake. Kinda nice out here. 'cept for all the rock trucks!!
Engine in question is a 304. I actually have 6 heads all together. The 2 that came off the engine to begin with(one head cracked) 2 remanufactured (one head broken) and 2 more that are so rusted and corroded they probably aren't worth messing with (off a 304e can't recall the casting #) they all have the 9 stand rocker assembly mounting holes though. And I will be needing new ones. Talked with Jeff on the phone a week or so ago but he wasn't sure when he would have those in.
 
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We were back home last December onna road trip, drove down through denton/sanger/flower mound, etc. On the way to the ft. Worth northside. Can't believe it's just one big city now from near gainesville to ft. Worth!

Then we spent a few in weatherford...same thang!

Lemme research this head deal now, I'll get back to ya.

We're still putting together the various "packages" of the rocker assemblies. We'll have complete nine stand assemblies ready to drop in place, along with component parts also.
 
Yep, it's all one big suburban area all the way down I-35. I went to school there in sanger and never thought that town would get a mcdonalds....boy was I wrong!!
 
Not having any luck with the references I have here. Maybe Jeff can shed some light on this!

But...there is a p/n 361666c91 head for a 266/304 (so that would be an "early" head). And a p/n 391934c91 for a 304a app.

None of the four part numbers appear in the price lists I have, but those were published between '82 and '85. It's possible the numbers had dropped out by then and were part of a "supercede" process, I don't have any way of verifying that though. A parts bulletin would have been issued covering information like that with a matrix of what replaces what.

Also...the p/n cast into the head itself, is prolly only for the raw casting...not the assembly as shown inna replacement parts list. We have no way of determining "raw" component p/n's at this time. And also. "replacement" part number units can be entirely differnt from the same basic part as supplied to the assembly line back in the day.

Also...since those engines and parts were used in ag products (a completely different division of corporate), it's possible that different part numbers were assigned for the same head if used inna combine for example, just because it had slightly different air compressor lube return port/fitting or something similar.

If the combustion chamber shape amongst all the heads you have is exactly the same, then they should all interchange...there is no "left" or "right" to those heads. As long as they are 152/266/304 applications.

I always enjoy working through stuff like this, this how we learn the nuances regarding these products!
 
is it ok to use 2 different heads (casting #) on the same engine? My stock head is casting #361 665 c2. I have a remanufactured head with casting #391 933 c1. Near as I can tell they are identical. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

According to my head sheet from the IH dealer,the # 361665 c2 head is:v-304e w/o air inj. # 391933c1 is : v-304e w/o air inj.,lt. Duty--Jeff
 
Thanks for posting your info Jeff! That gives me an idea about some other sources of info to look into. Great fact!

What you mention "might" be the difference in the p/n "break" from the 304 to the 304a. Unfortunately IH did not "explain" the difference in the parts list, sometimes they did a pretty good job of describing "difference" other than just an engine or chassis number cut, most of the time they did not.
 
So basically these 2 castings are the same except for the light duty rating?


All good info....thanks guys. Something else to consider if you ever have to mix and match heads is if they have been machined before. This could give different compression ratios. Not sure if it would be noticable but I did come across this link to help identify resurfaced heads

untitled document

Just in case you haven't seen it.

I May not have to mix mine. The supplier had insurance on the shipping so that should work out...I hope.

Then I'll need the rocker assembly's!!!!
 
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That's a great reference tonka!

I "believe" that was the same process used in documenting engines built in batches (reman operation) at the ihc "factory branch" back in the day. Our great resource here...dave the gear man, worked his way through the shop at the factory branch in portland, or back in the 70's...he left IH corporate when the "branch" operations were closed down and sold off beginning in '78, at that point he was the warranty manager/engineer working with IH dealers in the nw.

Dave later established a major race engine building operation in the portland area and then went on to work for dei (dale earnhart) as his r&d director for the engine group when the operation was formed around 1989. He cut his best friend earnhart out of the car at daytona and left the operation soon after that and "retired" from nascar. He's a neighbor here and helps me witha buncha stuff and also works with Jeff/ihon when called upon for "stuff"!

He has much in the way of IH-related "technical information" stored in his mothballed engine shop in portland...in the next few weeks we're going up to see what we can dig out of the archives that will be of use to us here on the forum, and then go look at tens of thousands of pounds of IH-related engine core components for future "use"!

When we talked to the core dude last week, he sez he's got maybe 200 core heads available, but they are not exactly a "fast mover" anymore! He sells only to commercial engine rebuilders, not the general public, heads are sold only in lots of ten and are guaranteed to be usable and crack-free.

Ihon also has many core heads!
 
That is some good news. Any info on these engines we can get compiled in general area helps the average guy like me.
I would be completely in the dark about the cam bearing/rocker issues if I hadn't come across the sonjamobile posts about a year or so ago and finally bit the bullet and tore into my own engine(even though I could turn the key and it would fire right up!!! The "rod" knock made me investigate).
My cam bearings were toast and my rocker shafts are so worn as to be unusable.....(no "rod" knock)..now I know it was mainly due to sitting for so long and I have also found out about the zinc content in the oil etc...something else I will have to fix.
Many thanks to you michael, Jeff and everyone else I have learned from by reading their posts. I hope my own help someone. ---steve
 
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Here are some photo's of the two different castings. As you can see , they appear identical.
 

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On any IH I-4 or sv head, if it was originally installed on an engine (either 152/196/266/304/345/or 392) that was originally equipped with air injection (emissions system component), then each exhaust port/runner is machined for the installation of an air distribution rail system. That would be a hole which is threaded 1/2"x20tpi and May or May not have a tubular "insert" down inside the port.

This tapped hole is right in the center/top of the exhaust port protrusion on the head where the exhaust manifold mates. The rail system used a "gland nut (swivel nut)" to retain each air tube in the port and was a one-piece unit that included a one-way check valve for the air hose connection point.

In many cases (including all my stuff), the a.I.r. System has been removed during engine modification. The resulting port in the head is simply plugged, I use a 1/2"x20 tpi internal wrenching cup point set screw for that, coated with anti-seize.

In this pic, look just to the right of each spark plug location and you will see the hex plug installed in each exhaust runner for I.d.

If your heads do not have the air injection ports...then that is a good thing! I have three similar 152/304 heads here now, none are a.I.r. Heads.
 

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On my head sheet,there's a 2nd row of numbers,service no.and the 2 heads numbered 361665 c2 & 391933 c1 ,have the same service number ( 337136 c91 ) which I beleive states they're usable as a pair!? Not real sure tho.michael can you ask your ihc bud about the service #'s?what they mean?thx.Jeff
 
Ok, I'm old and cannot see too well (actually a lie, since I still am not required to wear glasses to drive) -- it is my brain that cannot "see" well...

The heads look the same to me -- at least neither has air injection "ports" to my "eye" (brain?).

All I "see" are the threaded holes to "mount" the exhaust manifolds.....:gringrin:
 
That's why I asked for verification Robert! I can't see the a.I.r. Ports either.

However, let's not confuse this "emissions" vs. "non-emissions" stuff for these motors. That terminology means different things through the evolution of the IH engine product, depending upon which platform it was installed in originally, what the gvwr for the oem install was, what market the vehicle was ordered for, and the engine serial number "cut" point. This stuff was not an "all" or "none" deal and there was much crossover of components used, most especially in a "repair" situation!

An example is the head deal! There was an oem head number used when the engine was built. There was a "service part" number used for replacement parts procurement. Then there was the supercedence situation in later years as replacement part numbers were consolidated. Then there was a "remanufactured" p/n used for heads, short blocks, etc. Done at the various IH "branches". Then there was the "outsourced/contracted" line of reman/replacement stuff done under the "renew" line by folks such as jasper and marketed only through the IH dealer network or an authorized IH "service only" location.

In working with these engine kit parts nearly every day now, there is great ambiguity regarding aftermarket replacement parts such as pistons, cam/crank gear sets, camshafts, distributors, etc. Due to the use of "emissions" or "non-emissions" terminology. Much of the time we have to call a tech specialist at the supplier and have them explain exactly what they have and what we need! Once we've done that the first time, then we know what the parts sitch is and can make the appropriate ordering decisions. Dealing in 30+ year old engine parts, many of which have not been produced in the intervening years can be a real challenge, this is not cut and dry and we deal with real pros, not some localyokel parts monkee witha suspended driver's license.

An example...dealing with lining up the rocker shaft/assembly stuff...the parts are in warehouses somewhere! But we gotta get all the suppliers on the same page talking the same type and design rockers, shafts, stands, push rods, new, reman, etc.!!! Then we gotta git all the stuff into the store at the same time, inspect for "correctness", and then have a dialogue with the customer about "which" parts they really need! Most folks are not anywhere near knowledgeable about this stuff so we have to grill 'em extensively to make certain we git them the correct stuff they need the first time!
 
Well, brain still does not work..... (see)

I understand your statement about the different parts versus the different applications across the whole IH line.

I only have experience (slight) with one IH vehicle.

I am sure there were the possibility of many "different" heads (casting numbers) in the "IH world".

The only way to really "figure" it out is to scan all (light, medium, heavy) the IH parts books into a computer and sort out all the different part numbers for the heads -- even then there would be "holes".

And, you need the original parts books. It is possible that a 1985 part book will probably have a different part number for 1973 Scout II head than was in the original 1973 parts book. (same thing goes for corvairs though I doubt there is as many "variations" as IH had / has.)

and, the issue is further "clouded" by the fact that there are not that many original IH vehicles left (engine-wise) -- though there are probably more than I would have thought a few years ago.

Reading back through the post, Jeff c's numbers provide a "clue" -- at least to me. One head is listed as "light duty" -- which implies to me that the other head was probably for a medium duty vehicle.

I "eye-balled" the heads some more and there are a couple slight differences.

One picture shows the "end" of the heads -- one has a "passage(?)" blocked by a hex key screw / plug (like you blocked the a.I.r. Ports with) -- next to the "inside" freeze plug. I have no idea what "this" means....

The other difference (picture showing the casting / part numbers) is that the oval holes below casting number seem a little bit larger on one head -- the medium duty one? But, it could just be the perspective of the picture.

And, to any "core provider" one 304 head is the same as another -- except maybe jasper.
 
Robert...your idea regarding a matrix/spreadsheet of parts issues is great! That is what I'm attempting to do now with distributors, flywheels (I just completed a preliminary analysis), carbs, etc. But it's a massive undertaking!

I do have a near complete set of ihc mts and cts manuals scanned in on one of my machines. But using 'em is a bitch compared to simply flippin' pages and putting stickee notes on pages of paper! And since the info is not inna database format of any kind (only a .pdf), there is no way to sort or find info.

For example...the big service manual file is the cts 2000 which covers nearly all light/medium duty apps other than Scout. It's over 4000 pages!

The last generation of IH parts lists was the same paper simply scanned to microfiche for distribution. That was hi-tek up until about 1994 or so, then microfiche began to disappear from the scene and cdrom took over as the method of technical publications distribution for all oem appps. Don't know if IH/navistar ever included all the old stuff in that dbase or not. But currently parts lookups are made electronically in dealerships, including "old stuff" to a degree. Then the counter dude whips out the tons of old IH paper to really find what ya want. Then he/she enters the numbers into the system for an inventory check and availability in the various navistar pdc locations.

When ya look up all actual replacement part cylinder heads for IH stuff (the sv motor was used in ag products, industrial products, Scout line, light line, medium duty, bus, and motorhome apps), there are actually very few variations as compared to many parts!

But...the majority of stuff like cylinder variations was covered in part bulletins mailed to the dealer base, and May have never been actually included in successive "updates" of the paper parts list (the loose leaf version). And bulletins were constantly being issued! That information is invaluable to those of us in the special interest vehicle arena, but is not available except to those who collect that type of literature and luck out in finding a complete dealer set of info that was kept up to date back in the day!

The folks that repop this literature simply don't see a market for reproducing "sets" of bulletins issued by all the various groups within IH that delt in that stuff. Personally, I see otherwise...but then it's not "my" business (and this is not something ihon can force out of the suppliers). To me, the bulletin sets are actually more valuable to enthusiast than the service/parts lists themselves! But then...I used to be in the business of writing/publishing "tsb" stuff (technical service bulletin" for several oem manufacturers...so I'm prejudiced!

That 1/8"npt "plug" you describe threads into the oil drainback passage on any I-4/sv cylinder head. See this thread for a description:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...I-4-sv-engine-non-oiling-rocker-assembly.html

On medium duty apps of the sv engine equipped with some variation of an air brake system, the air compressor is pressure lubricated from the engine with a tap from the oil gallery (pressure side). However, the compressor does not have a "sump" as we know it. Lubrication oil from the compressor is returned to the engine through that port in the cylinder head with a simple oil line/fitting. In the case of the light duty rigs, that port is simply plugged off. That allows use of the same heads (and all their variations) on any I-4/sv engine app. So that is not a "pressure" tap.

That would make a handy oil return for a turbo install! I don't remember how the corvair spider turbos returned the lube oil???

As for the "ovality" of the hole ya see in the pic, that is a perspective thing! But many times I see various heads where machined or threaded holes used for various accessory mounts on different applications have been scruud over with broken bolts, plugged with jb weld, had stuff welded on!, etc. Again typical "po virus" stuff!

The core supplier I mentioned grades each and every part they make available to the rebuilder industry including a mag-check for cracks. And any broken stuff, welded up stuff, stripped thread stuff, etc. Goes to china, they won't ship stuff like that to a rebuilder as their reputation for "quality" doesn't allow that!

And...there is data available within that industry that actually covers the kinda "interchange" and "identification" of various engine components for all oem manufacturers, not just IH. This is stuff similar to what has already been mentioned in this thread and will never be found in the "retail" auto parts bizz! One of the main reasons dave is gonna intro me to these folks is so that we can have a line into a major resource for this kinda info, it won't happen overnight but no doubt it will pay off in enhancing our ability around here to take care of our customers!

Again...the "casting" number (IH part number) is for the head raw casting only, as a way of identifying tens of thousands of parts as they came out of the molds at the foundry. Then a bom (bill of materials) was used to machine/assemble these castings into an actual part number application for installation onna designated engine build. So the casting number could be used on many cylinder head variations...the u.s. Domestic stuff got one combustion chamber volume/shape, the "export" stuff got a different machining process, then the lpg stuff got another variation, the tractor/combine stuff gotta another variation, etc., etc.
 
reading back through the post, Jeff c's numbers provide a "clue" -- at least to me. One head is listed as "light duty" -- which implies to me that the other head was probably for a medium duty vehicle.

I "eye-balled" the heads some more and there are a couple slight differences.

One picture shows the "end" of the heads -- one has a "passage(?)" blocked by a hex key screw / plug (like you blocked the a.I.r. Ports with) -- next to the "inside" freeze plug. I have no idea what "this" means....

The other difference (picture showing the casting / part numbers) is that the oval holes below casting number seem a little bit larger on one head -- the medium duty one? But, it could just be the perspective of the picture.

And, to any "core provider" one 304 head is the same as another -- except maybe jasper.
The plug came installed along with the core plugs on each end from the remanufacturer. All plugs,bolts, valves etc were removed from the other casting to prep for rebuilding/cleanup and inspection. The plug/hole is only on one end of both heads. Is this still interchagable left/right? I guess if you needed it you could plumb a line to it on either end. But since I don't it shouldn't be a problem. All the mounting brackets should still line up, right?
The stripped head is the original head (near as I can tell) off of a 70 800a with a 304e block . Which according to Jeff's fact sheet wasn't a light duty.(?)
the good thing, as michael stated, is that neither head has the a.I.r ports. So I see no reason they couldn't be matched as long as they have been machined the same (or not machined at all) to keep the compression ratio the same on both heads.
The ovals are the same (camera illusion) I measured them just to be sure.
This question started as an off the wall thought because the matching remanufactured head was broken in shipping!! I am still waiting for dhl to make good on this. Hopefully they will soon. I am glad I asked....I have learned the questions I needed to ask before I ever ordered the heads!! I thank everyone for the ejumikation. --steve
 
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Michael (and everyone), thanks for the replies -- I am learning more about IH "stuff".

Re service / tech bulletins: unfortunately, I can see the re-publisher's point of view -- there are very few people interested in that "detailed" point of view -- no "return on investment". I did find an IH bulletin on some site with IH info where it "warned" about the a possible problem of "cross-firing" if you run the 5 / 7 spark plug wires next to each other -- though most people do. I know off topic...:gringrin:

yes, I remember the micro-fiche "parts book" that the IH parts guy hauled out to look up t/a parts.
 
The heads all interchange, passenger side to driver side, etc.

There must be a plug in any oil return port on the ends of the heads along with the core plugs of course. Those oil return ports are not used in any application other than an engine equipped with an oem air compressor for the brake system. So that rules out any Scout/light line vehicle application.

So...in the case of any head, installed on any light duty engine that port will be plugged!

Looking back to when I worked on this stuff new in 1968/'68 inna dealership, the compressors were mounted on the driver side front of the engine and the oil return line was plumbed nearly straight down into that port which would be on the front side of the head when it was installed on the driver side. But I need to go back through all air brake engine apps in the various parts lists and see if they were ever installed in any other location....is in a forward cab medium duty rig?? The generator/alternator location on the passenger side would precluded mounting over there. I'll post the segment of the parts list that shows a compressor setup so all May see what we're talking about here!

Thanks for bringing this up steve! This is the only way we all have of continuously learning about stuff like this, and the old timers can pass on what they know (or don't know) to the younger folks!
 
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