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    Owner/Operator

Hamilton Fuel Injection Distributer

motorider

Member
Hamilton Fuel Injection Distributor

Bill,
I received the fuel injection kit that I ordered from you and I am putting the finishing touches on the engine rebuild before I install the engine and complete the FI system.

I was test fitting the distributor and it will not fit in the oil pump drive shaft. I did rebuild the oil pump so I have installed the new drive shaft that came with the rebuild kit. I installed the old distributer as a test and it fit fine. Measuring, the new distributor is about .006-.008 inch larger than the old one in both the diameter and in the thickness of the key.

What do you think I should do? I am thinking I could lightly remove some material until the dimensions matched the old distributor shaft. I am interested in your thoughts?
Thanks
Tom young
 
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Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Tom,
I have ran into the same problem with the rebuild kits for the oil pump.
They must machine the slot to the thinner distr shaft and make it really tough to get the wider one installed.
I have put a small taper on the tip of the distr shaft and tapped the distr into place with a piece of wood on the top of the shaft. But it makes it difficult if you get the alighnment off on the first stab and have to get it out to change.
It takes a broom handle or 2x2 from the bottom to tap it up and out. Definately not right.

You can try to remove a little from each side of the shaft but it would need to be removed evenly to keep it running true.

Guess we need to take some measurements and send them to mellings so they can open the slot up about .010
is that who made your kit?

My last one was with a prestolite distr.
 

motorider

Member
Bill,
thanks for the input, I will try the chamfer and see if it fits a little better. It was a mellings rebuild kit.
Tom
 

motorider

Member
Re: Hamilton Fuel Injection Distributer and Tuning

Bill,

I seem to be losing my posts do to my error I think, so I hope you do not find this post in triplicate. I have installed everything and went through all the set up procedures as outlined. Some of the details: 1970 Scout 800a 304 with a four speed freshly rebuilt with 0.020 over pistons, and all stock parts with the exception of a remote sensing 3 wire alternator. I installed all new 3/8" feed and 5/16" return hard fuel lines, including into the tanks per one of your posts. As a reminder this has 3.78 gears with 31 inch tires if that matters. I set the minimum idle speed at 500-550 with iac disconnected per manual. Then I set the tps to .57 volts or .7%. Fuel pressure is a steady 15 psi. The Scout drives great with the exception of the following concerns:

1) the engine surges at idle when cold or hot. It is not steady, but runs well for a second or two, then seems to stumble to 500 rpm like it will stall, then runs steady at normal idle speed again for a few or more seconds before repeating. This condition comes and goes. If I disconnect the iac, the idle seems normal. I have checked and checked for vacuum leaks with out finding any.

2) the high idle does not seem to be working when connected to a 12 volt source. What speed is this programed to run when connected?

3) the throttle return spring seems hard or maybe sticky off idle. Do you think it would be ok to add a helper spring to lighten the pedal feel? Or do I have a problem?

I attached a raw date log of the surging idle only for a few minutes. The remaining logs are of a varied 30 minute drive. Please let me know your thoughts or if you need additional information.

Thanks for your help. What a great system!

Tom young.
 

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Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Tom,
a surge at idle is an indication of being lean.
When I look at your data it verifies you are lean at idle and even have a lean o2 error code.
This would indicate to me either an air leak or an exhaust leak.
The fuel is better as you drive so that tells me the leak is being overcome with the rpm.
It May be possible that the iac is not working but if the idle speed is adjusting then the iac is working. Have you verified the vacuum draw from the iac changes as the throttle changes.

I show you being about 5k ft so the fuel should actually be Rich not lean.

Was this an egr manifold and do you have the egr blocked off?

The throttle concerns me. If it is sticking then you should unbolt it and verify it moves free when off compared to when it's on.
I've never heard of a throttle being stiff. The springs are not that strong. I would not recommend a spring to assist opening the throttle.

Is there a way for you to send e some pics of the install?

Also while data logging you should uncheck the raw box in data logger and check the other 3 boxes.

Disconnect the ECM prior to logging so it clears fault codes.
 
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motorider

Member
Bill,

this is a non egr manifold and I will take and send some pictures tomorow night. What do you mean by the iac vacuum changing with throttle? You are right, I am at 5k feet.

Thanks,

Tom
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
The port just above the iac is where it sucks in air. At idle it would have a small amount of suction then as you increase the rpm the suction will increase.
 

motorider

Member
Bill,
as I am sure I do not have an a exhaust leak and all signs point to a vacuum leak, and did some investigation and it seems like I have a leak between the manifold and TBI adapter. I took the adapter off and I could see a path of the carb cleaner (I was spraying on the outside to check for leaks) along the gasket at the rear portion of the TBI that could be a vacuum leak. I used a permatex high tack sealant and I think the carb cleaner was sucked between the manifold and adapter and dissolved the sealant, as the surging worsened. I checked the manifold and adapter with a straight edge and they look flat. Is there any type of a sealant you would recommend or do you just install the gasket dry?

Also, I looked the the throttle plates and I do not see any binding when the TBI is installed or off the manifold. The spring just feels firm to me. Not sure if this is an issue, maybe something I just need to adjust to.

I attached a couple of pictures so you could see the general TBI set up.

Thanks

Tom
 

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Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Tom,
it looks like you have made some changes to the kit.
That looks like a bbc 2 barrel adapter and it will not work with the sbc throttle body.

It also looks like the throttle linkage was pulling back and down so you probably have a breakover point at the begining.
I recommend using the adapter that came with it. It was probably a flat steel 1/4" plate back then.
But you have to make sure you use the correct length bolts that came with it or that you install.
I recommend bolting the TBI to the plate first to verify the length and if good then separate and install the plate on the manifold.
I use a very thin coat of silicon on all gaskets. It should have been in the instructions.

If you get the correct adapter on there and then fix the trottle linkage, you should be good.
You May need to raise the cable in the back to match the front.

You May also be able to drill a hole closer to the shaft on the TBI arm to help. But be careful to check for full throw of the throttle.
 

motorider

Member
Bill,

the adapter I used was a Holley 17-47 as shown in this link.

manifold adapters for TBI - binder planet forums.

For some reason that I do not recall, I did not make myself aware of the aluminum adapters you have as well. I am not too excited about the steel plate. No worries on my end regarding steel one in the kit, I just like the aluminum adapter better. Will the Holley 17-47 work alright?

Good eye on the throttle linkage, I think you are right and I will investigate.

Thanks for all your help. The Scout runs much much better with the TBI already.

Tom
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
All Holley throttle bodies are 2" bore so the adapters are made to fit them. Which means it's the same size as the bbc.
It is quite easy to see in you pic that the adapter hole is much bigger then the throttle bore.
The gasket will leak.
If you looked at the 454 adapter precaustions it shows exactly what you have happening.

So the bottom line is no, that adapter will not work for your throttle body.
 

motorider

Member
I changed the adapter back to the one supplied in the kit and sealed the gaskets with a thin coat of silicone. Also the iac was loose on the throttle body which I tightened. I then went through the set up procedures again and set idle speed to 475-550rpm with iac disconnected. Tps was then at .59 so I did not adjust. I looked at the iac and could not tell if the air changed with throttle changes. I did see where, when cold, there was a lot of air through the iac and rpm was around 1200. As the engine warmed the iac air lessoned and idle was closer to 800. So the iac is at least moving.

The idle situation has not changed and I still have the surging. If I run the engine to 2000 rpm without load and hold the throttle steady, I can see a surge of about 200 rpm.

Attached is the logs after I made the above changes.

I changed the point of connection on the throttle linkage and that fixed the hard throttle.

Not sure what to do next. I am surprised changing the adapter did not work as I did not notice all the air passages at the bottom of the throttle body.
 

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Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Ok all looks good except the fuel looks lean which is what is causing the surge. When it's running, look at the injectors and see if both are flowing about the same.
Do you have a way to check the fuel pressure?
 

dkminors

Member
When I installed my adapter I could see the possibility for bottoming out the TBI bolts into the manifold (as bill mentioned). I wanted to make sure I the threads were through the adapter all the way and not pushing up the adapter plate to cause a leak, so I countersunk 3/8 in. Holes about 1/8 in. Deep into the mounting surfaces. As I recall only two of them had this possible issue.
 

motorider

Member
when I installed my adapter I could see the possibility for bottoming out the TBI bolts into the manifold (as bill mentioned). I wanted to make sure I the threads were through the adapter all the way and not pushing up the adapter plate to cause a leak, so I countersunk 3/8 in. Holes about 1/8 in. Deep into the mounting surfaces. As I recall only two of them had this possible issue.
Thanks,
I did check the assembled depth of the tb mounting bolts and they did not protrude through the adapter plate. I did use the bolts bill supplied.

Bill,
I will check the injectors when I get home tonight. The fuel pressure was a steady 15 psi at various rpm. I also took a 2 min video of the dash on the windal software as well as my tacometer. Not sure this helps you any.

Thank you for your help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlurtnes3wg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

motorider

Member
ok all looks good except the fuel looks lean which is what is causing the surge. When it's running, look at the injectors and see if both are flowing about the same.
Do you have a way to check the fuel pressure?
Bill,

when it is running, the injectors look like they are flowing about the same. The surging is definitely much worse when cold. The video I posted above was when it was warm.

Tom
 

Bill USN-1

F.I. Moderator
Unless I happen to mispackage the bolts in the kit, all the kits come with the proper length bolts.
The only reason I mentioned it in this case was Tom had changed the adapter from the one supplied in the kit.
I try to do everything I can to keep the installation as easy as I can.

Tom, it looks like all is good so it May just be a bad burn on the chhip.
I'll drop a new chip in the mail today. Just return that one and I will check it out.
I do bench test every system but that only check operation and error codes.
 

motorider

Member
Bill,
I received the new chip today. I installed then started. The engine started right up and idled beautifully. I warmed it up checked the timing with the bypass disconnected and it was about 2 degrees bdc and decided that was close so did not adjust. Set idle to 575-600 with iac closed, then checked tps and it was 0.59 and 1.2% and decided that was also close.

Went for a 45 minute drive logging data as attached. The engine ran well with no complaints, other than a slight surging for 3-5 oscillations coming to a stop. Then a smooth idle.

I then get home and the idle is surging as before (see previous link to video). I see that there is a "closed loop flag" boxed checked in the flag data tab. I turn key off, wait a minute and start and the "closed loop flag" is not checked and the idle is smooth. Hold the engine rpm a 2000 for a few seconds, return to idle and the surging returns with the "closed loop flag" checked. Did this a few times and I had repeated results. Have not had a check engine light that I have noticed the entire time.

Long story, just trying to provide information as I see, not sure what is relevant.

Lots of improvements with the new chip.

Should I try to fine tune the initial set up to 0 degrees timing and 1% tpi? Or?

Thanks for your help,

Tom
 

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