A Few Of My Findings

[AmerIHCan]

---this thread got 180'd quicker than a gets paid to change the path to one's future (think before you speak).

---hope Craig, et al, keep learning & don't allow themselves to be shot down by those who say they can't. People who say "that" are just admitting they're not able to and/or haven't found the way... And hopefully those people as well, aren't dependent of dictation. Call this post a prayer if you will, it's color is background so it will be heard only by those who's eyes are open. Reading will always be fundamental... r.I.f..

---fwiw, there's back doors to everything, even password protected information and some sites leave them open as a "teaser"/preview to market subscriptions (as well as for other reasons). If you kept your eyes closed in data processing, when you were being taught about "explorer", you subconsciously gave up the right to knowledge of how to find those back doors. Though I'm no "professor" I cannot be accused of being dumb enough to close my eyes in class.

---sort through the bs all and don't allow the wool to be pulled over your eyes, don't close your eyes in fear and for god's sake son, get your finger outta your nose.

---my thanks to swepco for the suggestions & sympathy were* expressed in the original message. I hereby say that goes without saying.
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---tofucius say, "one is destined to trip ignorance if learning in another's shoes" and "talk your walk, not walk your talk"

 

[Craig]

The more I read about oil the more I realize how little I know.

Its a concoction of petrochemicals that provide several functions, and keying in one or two aspects can lead you down the wrong path. Like buying some no named brand of oil at wal-mart (accel) because it says sf rating.

It cost a lot to change the oil in the Scout at $7 qt and it takes 7 qts with the larger oil pan. But I want the best oil I can but for it.

Shell rotella 15-40 or 30 wt has been used by many for years, its cost a lot less and people seem to be happy with it. I might try that in my old pickup.

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

I'm always sorry to hear that someone had an engine casualty after switching brands of engine oil. The latest curse, the lowering of zddp and other additives have caused some real problems, and I had predicted back in April of 2007 that it was going to cost American consumers millions of dollars. That, of course doesn't make you, or anyone else who has suffered the loss any happier about their circumstances.

Many times, even unknowing but well-meaning people will get something off the shelf which has been advertised as the greatest thing since sliced bread and use it in a situation where it shouldn't be used. I'm thinking that this is what might have happened here. I have a hunch that the oil "did it's job" as advertised to have a much higher level of detergents to "clean and keep the engine clean" per mobil's statement. My hunch is that putting the high-powered detergent oil in an engine which has 300k miles logged, cleaned it out to the point where it's age showed through. On top of that, the oil is rated as an "sm" which has a lower additive package as far as the zinc and phosphorous are concerned.......soooooo, if you are following me, after any sludge and varnish might have been cleaned out, with the reduction of zinc, in particular, the protection was compromised. It might have also plugged your oil filter in the process.

The api (American petroleum institute) mandates that sm oils be "backwards compatible" with previous grade oils, and the mobil 7500 product is such, but that doesn't mean the sm grade is the best grade to use in older engines, especially those which require the higher zinc level.

Pre 2007 gasoline engine oils could have as much (or more) than 1,200 ppm of zinc and 1,000 ppm of phoshorous, most of the higher performance oils, as well as some diesel oils like Craig mentioned (pre sm or cj-4) have the more robust additives. Sulfonated ash is part of the detergency package, and generally in the cj-4 (diesel) rating, it has also been reduced from the pre 2007 requirements. I've seen some of the newer sm oils with as low as 500 - 600 ppm on zinc, in fact most of the synthetic oils do not use very much zinc in their formulation as it does not remain soluable in the oil, and just drops out and sits in the bottom of the oil pan!

When your engine was new, it called for straight 30 weight oil, which is almost near to impossible to find on the shelf now. If you can still find the older diesel oil (Craig mentions rotella-t)which is rated no higher than ci-4, you will be getting an oil which has the higher additive package......anything over "sl or ci-4" will have a lower additive package. The 15w40 will be more easily available as that is normally a "diesel weight." going to a higher viscosity oil than the 30wt oil which was called for will probably not be harmful at all, in fact it might even be better for some of the older engines that are high mileage.

Of course, you probably know from previous postings that I highly recommend swepco 306 engine oil, it is available in 5w30, 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50. I always recommend a multi-vis oil, even with the older units for more protection at start-up. However with high mileage engines, I always am very cautious about introducing it because of the fact that it does contain a high-detergent package to help clean, and keep clean the engines. But it also has a higher additive level for protection. It is available from Jeff at ihon on the purchase page.

When switching over from one oil to another, always monitor the oil level religiously and keep an ear out for "funny" noises, it is not unusual to experience oil consumption when you change from a mediocre oil to a product with a higher detergency level. Unless there is a huge additive clash between any residual oil and the new oil being put in, putting up with more oil consumption would probably be the worst thing to deal with, however, in many cases, after the rings re-seat, oil consumption May go back down to, or below what it was before switching.

Mil-l specifications are normally a minimum spec required for military use, it does not mean that they are more stringent than api specs are, in fact most api specs in effect at any given time will more than likely pass the mil-l spec at that time. You are right, going down that road can get you into more gobbledy-gook than what you need to know....it's confusing enough already!

I've never heard of the "snake oil" mentioned, but normally try to steer people away from those..... As far as I know, there has never been a mechanic in a can invented!

This post May not be of any further help in your situation, but it is offered to again (like hit the mule between the eyes with a 2 by 4 to get his attention) warn you guys out there to stay away from the new oils in the old equipment!

Best of luck to you..keep us posted,

dick floryanowich
swepco

 

[RobertC]

From above -- I highly recommend swepco 306 engine oil, it is available in 5w30, 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50. I always recommend a multi-vis oil, even with the older units for more protection at start-up. However with high mileage engines, I always am very cautious about introducing it because of the fact that it does contain a high-detergent package to help clean, and keep clean the engines.

I just put some (306 20/50) in my 392 (73 t/a) with approx 188,000 miles this afternoon. I haven't started it up yet -- later this evening...

But, I have changed the oil (and filter) regularly (usually 3,000 miles unless on long trips) -- maybe only once a year sometimes, but I only put a couple thousand miles / year for many years. I have always used name brand oil (penzoil, valvoline, kendall, quaker state, etc).

I assume swepco is not "that much cleaner" than the other oils -- of course, "oil tech" has changed over the last 34 years....

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

Robert,

first of all, I would like to thank you for switching over to swepco's 306 engine oil. I'm sure you will be pleased with the product and the performance you get out of it.

As far as "cleanliness" is concerned, swepco has always had a higher detergency package in the formulation of it's engine oils. Higher detergency along with a more robust total additive package which includes rust and oxidation inhibitors are all components of the 306 formula. In total, the protection you get from the better base stocks and total additive package in my estimation would be much greater than the brands you mentioned.

We've spent a lot of time lately on the reduction of zinc and other anti-wear additives used in engine oil, but the bottom line is the total package. Engine oil chemistry is a lot more complex than most people realize, and a lot of the oil brands you see on the market are much less expensive than swepco is, they are not "competing" with swepco, except on a price basis - they are competing with each other on quality. If you use more high quality component chemistry, the price is higher. Most of the newer synthetic, or synthetic blend oils are higher priced because the market bears it, although in some cases it is more expensive to refine the base stocks of those oils....however quite a few of them have little or no zinc in them because it is not soluable in those oils and "drops out of suspension" after a very short time.

Dick floryanowich
swepco

 

[DF Sales&Marketing]

Response to amerihcan:

first of all, in regards to "referring to the owner's manual" - the reason I did not include any reference to that is because I knew that what the original owner's manual called for at the time is not readily available now.....so I've given you some choice on the subject. Today's chemistry is much different than it was 30 years ago, and each individual needs to weigh the pros and cons of the application when choosing a lubricant. My intent is to honestly give an opinion on what I have seen and learned in my profession and make recommendations based on that experience.

You also state that you wouldn't consider running a c rated oil in a gasoline engine, but prior to the big change in specs for 2007 engines, most conventional (non-synthetic) oils carried both a "c" rating and an "s" rating. When the 2007 specs were developed, it became close to impossible to carry both diesel and gasoline service ratings in quite a few weights and/or brands because the gasoline additive parameters are much lower than the diesel are. Then you state that you have found a rotella oil which is rated at "s/c." I guess you admitted to the posibility of making a compromise with it. The shell rotella-t engine oil was basically designed for diesel service, but it does carry a gasoline service rating as well....like I said previously, most diesel oils covered gasoline service ratings before the sm/cj-4 rating was released.

With regard to beefing up an "sa" grade oil which is not only mediocre, it is illegal to sell as an engine oil. Why would anyone want to go through all of that trouble with a base stock which is practically worthless to start with and start fooling around with additives to make it better? Unless you are a "mad scientist" it just doesn't make sense knowing that there is already something better available.

Also, fyi, there will be another api change in oil specifications slated for sometime in 2010.

Yellow metal compatibility in gearboxes has been covered in previous posts. 30 years ago and back even further, the main recommendation for manual gearboxes and some diffs was to use either a 90 wt mineral gear oil oil which is rated gl-4, or a 50 wt non-detergent engine oil. (90wt gear oil is the same viscosity as 50 wt engine oil). However, here again, most of this chemistry is obsolete. There are some lubricant manufacturer's out there (including swepco) whose gl-5 gear oils do a fantastic job because they do not contain the highly active sulfur/phosphorous compounds which attack yellow metals.

If you send me your personal email address, I will send you any msds or pds material you need....just specify what you want. I do not send that information out on a forum format and the personal reply section does not allow it on Jeff's system.

One of the good things about living in a capitalistic country, is the fact that we all have the capability of making up our own minds and choosing for ourselves what we deem is good for our individual needs. So with this in mind, if the information you gather on these forums is not what you want to hear, you have the right to disregard any or all of it as you choose. I can tell you that the topics I have seen covered by myself as well as the majority of others are bonafide and forthright.....so take it from there.

I'll leave here with "best regards"

dick floryanowich
swepco

 

[Greg R]

Thomas: you ain't learn'in nuth'in strictly going on the I-net and google. Many of the organizations that really have the info like sae, noria, or api usually require some sort of membership to access their papers, reports, & abstracts. Much of the internet stuff you can get is usually only condensed or just a synopsis. If you really want the meat of it, you might try a real book. Look into leslie r. Rudnick's stuff, it's not all high level sci-mumbo jumbo and can get you a real understanding of lubrication technology.