Will a 5 speed manual transmition from a early 70's v8 390 fit on to a v8 304 from the late 70's? The 304 is an International 304. Also the 5 speed transmition came out of a travel all that was a 4x2 and I am looking to bolt this up to a Dana transfer case from a late 70's Scout, can this be done? I am sure that the tail shaft assembly will have to change, but will the modifications be a real pain? Does anyone know anything good or bad about the 5 speed manual transmition, as opposed to going with the 4 speed t19 close transmition? Any pros or cons of either? Thanks for the help. This a project I am just starting on with my 15 year old son and I want to make sure it is done right. Walt robak
5 Speed Manual Transmition
- Thread starter waltrobak
- Start date
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The five speed transmissions were never designed for a married transfer case attachment. Those were used in light line trucks and travelalls along with some medium duty vehicles originally. They are monsters in dimension and weight and certainly not suited for any version of the Scout platform.
As for a transfer case adapter to mate with some sort of married transfer case, some machine shops can make anything, but the cost would be outrageous. And a transmission used in front of a married transfer case would have to have adapter(s) along with a very short output shaft assembly.
I've delt with one np435 transmission (huge also) bolted to a np 205 transfer case in a mid-80's Ford pickup, I'll never take on a job like that again.
As for a transfer case adapter to mate with some sort of married transfer case, some machine shops can make anything, but the cost would be outrageous. And a transmission used in front of a married transfer case would have to have adapter(s) along with a very short output shaft assembly.
I've delt with one np435 transmission (huge also) bolted to a np 205 transfer case in a mid-80's Ford pickup, I'll never take on a job like that again.
79scout_ok
New member
I believe there is pros and cons to any tranny, imo it would depend upon what you want to use the Scout for, cruiser or wheeler? If that 5 speed is like the Ford 5 speeds it will have od as the fifth gear which is a plus for highway cruising as it keeps the rpms down, the 4 speed with granny low imo is better for towing and wheeling as it has granny 1st gear. You will have to have an adapter to adapt the tranny bellhousing pattern from the 390 to work on the 304 IH engine, that is if you are talking 390 Ford engine unless you mean a 392 IH engine it should work.
FDChappie
Well-known member
Actually there are 3 versions of the 5 speed, t34, t35 & t36. One is wide ratio with a direct drive 5th, one is narrow ratio with a direct drive 5th and iirc the t36 is over drive 5th. I've got a '71 travelette with the t35 and it is a very nice towing tranny. The truck has 3.54 gears in the diff so with the direct drive rpm's are reasonable at 70 mph and it has a stump puller granny low to get a big load moving.
As stated by michael, a IH 5 speed does not really "fit" in a Scout II - size and divorced transfer case. Also, you need "all" the IH 5 speed pieces - bell housing, crossmember, clutch linkage, throwout bearing...
There are 3 (or more) IH 5 speeds.
T-34 (fifth overdrive) and t-36 (fifth direct) were offered as an ordered option in IH travelalls and full size pickups (also in med duty (and higher) IH trucks).
T-35 (fifth direct) seems to be only offered in IH trucks...
T-34 and t-36 have non-synchro first and reverse - do not know about t-35.
First and reverse are 6.2 / 6.1 in the t-34 and t-36; 7.2 / 7.0 in the t-35.
2nd, 3rd, and 4th are slightly "lower" ratios in the t-35 than the t-34 / t-36 ratios, but it cannot be considered a "narrow ratio" transmission given the first gear.
There are 3 (or more) IH 5 speeds.
T-34 (fifth overdrive) and t-36 (fifth direct) were offered as an ordered option in IH travelalls and full size pickups (also in med duty (and higher) IH trucks).
T-35 (fifth direct) seems to be only offered in IH trucks...
T-34 and t-36 have non-synchro first and reverse - do not know about t-35.
First and reverse are 6.2 / 6.1 in the t-34 and t-36; 7.2 / 7.0 in the t-35.
2nd, 3rd, and 4th are slightly "lower" ratios in the t-35 than the t-34 / t-36 ratios, but it cannot be considered a "narrow ratio" transmission given the first gear.
Best 5 speed available today that will adapt to the IH engine is the nv4500. We have the adapter kits in stock - nv4500 to IH v8 transmission adapter kit - International Scout parts
FDChappie
Well-known member
That looks like a better description of the available IH 5 speeds than I gave. At one time I had IH vehicles with each of these trannies at the same time. It would always take me a bit to remember where reverse was because they were all different. The t35 I had was in a b160 dump truck and it's ratios were designed to work with the 2 speed rear end.
Thanks for all of the replies. I think that I am going to stay with the 4 speed tranny to make life a bit easier. Since I am not really building this for mudding or major off road use, what 4 speed would you reccommend. I know that there are 2 or 3 different ones. This will be built for road use and mild off road. Thanks again for the help.
FDChappie
Well-known member
Waltrobak,
it looks like you really want a wide ratio tranny. I believe I have one. It's t18 in a '70 3/4 ton pickup. This truck has not run since I've had it, but the previous owner had just installed a bunch of new tune up parts before he passed away. So odds are it is in good shape. Don't know for sure if its wide or not and don't know how to tell with out pulling it. Pm me if interested.
it looks like you really want a wide ratio tranny. I believe I have one. It's t18 in a '70 3/4 ton pickup. This truck has not run since I've had it, but the previous owner had just installed a bunch of new tune up parts before he passed away. So odds are it is in good shape. Don't know for sure if its wide or not and don't know how to tell with out pulling it. Pm me if interested.
All transmissions in full-sized IH vehicles used a divorced t/c.
They do not "work" in scouts and I do not know if full-sized 4 speeds can be modified to work with a mated t/c. You probably need a "back case", an output shaft and a bull gear if it is possible.
From all of the conversations I have had, I think what I am looking for is is a 4speed "narrow or close" tranny. I do not want a granny gear since this will be mostly on the road and if I am correct the granny gear is not a synro gear. So you really need to use 2nd to start out on. I have a couple more questions and then I think I am set.
1) what is the difference between a t-18 and a t-19 tranny? Is one more durrable than the other and what one will fit with a Dana 20 tc?
2) how will I tell if I am looking at a tranny if it is a t-18 or a t-19 and how do I know if I am looking at a wide ratio or close tranny?
Thanks again for the help. I owned a 77 Scout traveler growing up and I am getting more education working on my sons than I ever did working on my own.
Walt
1) what is the difference between a t-18 and a t-19 tranny? Is one more durrable than the other and what one will fit with a Dana 20 tc?
2) how will I tell if I am looking at a tranny if it is a t-18 or a t-19 and how do I know if I am looking at a wide ratio or close tranny?
Thanks again for the help. I owned a 77 Scout traveler growing up and I am getting more education working on my sons than I ever did working on my own.
Walt
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Any oem design manual transmission to be installed in a Scout II must be donated from a Scout II. That means transmission from a fullsize or medium duty vehicle will not work unless someone has a deep charge account with a custom machinist.
Ihon does market a nv 4500 system to install in a Scout II however, that is a highly-developed "kit" that Jeff and the crew have spent many hours/dollars on to bring to retail.
A Scout t18 is an early form of the spicer four speed unit, it does not have a synchro on first gear. Likewise, the input and output systems on the Scout t18 is only for the IH engine.
A t19 is an "upgraded" t18 that does have a synchro first gear. Those were supplied in both wide ratio (very low first gear) and in a close ratio (higher first gear ratio).
None of the actual numbers that are cast onto any of the spicer parts mean anything since many parts were used interchangeably. We must see the inside parts and compare part numbers to determine exactly what parts are installed and what their callouts mean.
Each transmission originally supplied to ihc had a metal tag under a bolt head, usually found on either the shifter top or on one of the rear housing bolts. That tag carries an IH part number along with a spicer version number. If we are certain that the unit has not been "scrambled" in the past, those spicer numbers can identify the transmission and determines what parts are installed inside.
For use in a Scout II application, only Scout II-sourced transmissions can be used. Transmission professionals many times have a database which tells them what parts can be interchanged (to a degree), but the average person who has never done this will certainly struggle.
Ya wanna "know" what first gear ratio you have is? Then with the transmission in first gear position, count the input shaft turns and compare with how many are needed to make the output shaft turn exactly one revolution.
Roughly six turns of the input shaft make a "wide" ratio, four turns make a "close" ratio. By far, the close ratio t19 is more common in the Scout II vehicles.
Ihon does market a nv 4500 system to install in a Scout II however, that is a highly-developed "kit" that Jeff and the crew have spent many hours/dollars on to bring to retail.
A Scout t18 is an early form of the spicer four speed unit, it does not have a synchro on first gear. Likewise, the input and output systems on the Scout t18 is only for the IH engine.
A t19 is an "upgraded" t18 that does have a synchro first gear. Those were supplied in both wide ratio (very low first gear) and in a close ratio (higher first gear ratio).
None of the actual numbers that are cast onto any of the spicer parts mean anything since many parts were used interchangeably. We must see the inside parts and compare part numbers to determine exactly what parts are installed and what their callouts mean.
Each transmission originally supplied to ihc had a metal tag under a bolt head, usually found on either the shifter top or on one of the rear housing bolts. That tag carries an IH part number along with a spicer version number. If we are certain that the unit has not been "scrambled" in the past, those spicer numbers can identify the transmission and determines what parts are installed inside.
For use in a Scout II application, only Scout II-sourced transmissions can be used. Transmission professionals many times have a database which tells them what parts can be interchanged (to a degree), but the average person who has never done this will certainly struggle.
Ya wanna "know" what first gear ratio you have is? Then with the transmission in first gear position, count the input shaft turns and compare with how many are needed to make the output shaft turn exactly one revolution.
Roughly six turns of the input shaft make a "wide" ratio, four turns make a "close" ratio. By far, the close ratio t19 is more common in the Scout II vehicles.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
You've got to quit thinking of these ihc vehicles being produced like chryfordrolets. Each ihc production unit was built to individual specifications supplied by the ordering dealer. If ya wanted one with no transmission, then that is what ya got.
Therefore, many of the so-called specs used with other trades simply don't apply in the ihc world.
If you want to know ihc "stuff" such as equipment specs, etc., then you should have in your possession the correct service manual for the vehicle under discussion along with it's appropriate parts list. The parts list gives a breakout with many references to the vehicle serial number (not a vin) as to what parts fit what version.
Much information was also produced monthly in service letters to the dealer base. But those are not currently reproduced by our two vendors who have the rights to ihc service literature, though many folks do have selected copies avail;able they have collected.
These transmissions along with virtually any other part are available both used and as rebuilts right here on ihon. A close ratio t19 is very common in the ihc community.
Therefore, many of the so-called specs used with other trades simply don't apply in the ihc world.
If you want to know ihc "stuff" such as equipment specs, etc., then you should have in your possession the correct service manual for the vehicle under discussion along with it's appropriate parts list. The parts list gives a breakout with many references to the vehicle serial number (not a vin) as to what parts fit what version.
Much information was also produced monthly in service letters to the dealer base. But those are not currently reproduced by our two vendors who have the rights to ihc service literature, though many folks do have selected copies avail;able they have collected.
These transmissions along with virtually any other part are available both used and as rebuilts right here on ihon. A close ratio t19 is very common in the ihc community.
Hi Mike,
are you aware of anyone that make an auxilary trans that will match up to the t-19 and the d20? Years ago my Dad had one in his pickup and if one is available that would be a great option. I can go with a lower gear ratio in the differentials and a higher gear in the auxilary for the highway. Also who would I talk with to see what you have in stock in the t-19 close and a d20? Let me know if you know of anything. Thanks walt
are you aware of anyone that make an auxilary trans that will match up to the t-19 and the d20? Years ago my Dad had one in his pickup and if one is available that would be a great option. I can go with a lower gear ratio in the differentials and a higher gear in the auxilary for the highway. Also who would I talk with to see what you have in stock in the t-19 close and a d20? Let me know if you know of anything. Thanks walt
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
The nv 4500 transmission swap to by far the easiest way to go. Again, the short wheelbase sii with a married transfer case does not lend itself to this.
I've never heard of any kind of auxiliary transmission for a Scout II app, but on a fullsize rig with divorced transfer case, the smart way to go would be a gearvendors over/under drive unit.
It certainly is possible to add in a transfer case with different gear cuts and or a four-speed transfer case. But you are talking big bucks there! Here's a thread regarding doing just that involving a tf 727 automatic in a Scout II:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...274-Scout-II-727-output-shaft-conversion.html
Call Jeff at ihon and discuss the transmission scenario, 530.268.0864. He can advise if he has all the used parts for a swap and give details regarding the nv4500 changeover.
I've never heard of any kind of auxiliary transmission for a Scout II app, but on a fullsize rig with divorced transfer case, the smart way to go would be a gearvendors over/under drive unit.
It certainly is possible to add in a transfer case with different gear cuts and or a four-speed transfer case. But you are talking big bucks there! Here's a thread regarding doing just that involving a tf 727 automatic in a Scout II:
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...274-Scout-II-727-output-shaft-conversion.html
Call Jeff at ihon and discuss the transmission scenario, 530.268.0864. He can advise if he has all the used parts for a swap and give details regarding the nv4500 changeover.