5 Post Rocker Assembly

ronmc1954

ronmc1954

Member
I am going to start this thread and refer to michael's post on
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...ocker-assembly.html?highlight=rocker+assembly
And to another post of mine
http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.co...what-do-I-have.html?highlight=rocker+assembly
Info in these 2 posts are alot more detailed than what you will read here, but care and cleaning will be the same for both assemblies.
I have taken some pics of the 5 post rocker assembly that michael spoke of in his post.
I will add that the 5 post and 9 post are not interchangable, in the sense that the heads for a 5 post assembly are not drilled and tapped to accomidate nine posts. The importance of the oil port is just as critical for both. The 5 post uses post 2 on the passengers side and post four on the drivers side.
The first pic is the assembly completely dis-assembled.
dscf1355.jpg

The next pic is showing the shaft, notice there is a port for every rocker. You will also see that there is some wear on the shaft but it is more polished than wore off.
dscf1360.jpg

Now the next pic shows that every rocker has an oil grove to line up with the port on the shaft.
dscf1359.jpg

Now looking at the whole assembly again you will see that who ever rebuilt this assembly used 3 posts that have been designed to deliver oil to the shaft. But in this case 2 of them do nothing.
dscf1357.jpg

The next two pics show the assembly aligned with the head and the oil port.
dscf1361.jpg

dscf1362.jpg

The last picture I have shows the wear spot on the rocker its self.
dscf1356.jpg

Notice the wear is not so bad that it interfers with the oil grove in the rocker.
Now michael if I have posted any incorrect info please correct me.
Now one question I do have are the push rods and lifters the same for a 5 post and a 9 post rocker assembly?
 
From all the research I have done on the rocker assemblies etc. The only thing that May be different are the push rods, the welded/old style have one end cupped.
I have read you can convert the 9 stand to a five stand. Just have to block off the unused bolt holes in the head, and that the rocker shafts can be used in both style stands. You have to turn them over is all, so that the oil holes are in the right position.
I have the 9 stand welded style with rocker shafts so worn I need new ones. Hoping ihonlynorth will have them in stock soon!
 
Yes, the push rod applications are different. A "welded" rocker requires a push rod with a cup on the rocker end and a ball on the lifter end.

A "boat" or "stamped" rocker requires a push rod with a ball tip on both ends.

Also, there are two different length push rods for each type rocker! The "short" push rod is used on 152, 266, and 304 apps. The longer push rod is used for the 196, 345, and 392 applications.

Because the "5 stand" assembly lacks the four additional rocker stands, the springs are added to those systems only to take up the space resulting form the lack of the 4 additional rocker stands.

Ya can't "turn over" the 9 stand rocker shafts and use in 5 stand applications. If you do so the rocker oil holes will be on the bottom of the shaft, thus the oil will simply run out of the "bushing" area of the rocker arm and not be distributed to the push rod interface of the rocker/valve tip. The rocker/shaft interface would also starve for oil. And the four unused holes for the hold down bolts would also all oil to flow freely out of the shaft and not completely fill the hollow shaft to provide oil volume needed for the rocker bushings and rocker tip oiling scenarios.

As for the lifter subject, only a single hydraulic lifter part is used in all I-4 and sv engine applications. There are only a couple of root manufacturers of lifters for these engines, both are u.s. Manufacturers with the lifters manufactured in the u.s.! But you will find these lifters marketed under several different brand names. The lifters interchange with each other in the bores. But the individual components which make up the lifter assembly do not interchange.

We have spent the last week working on bringing in to ihon all parts needed for refreshing the valve train for both the I-4 and sv applications. Here's the latest and most current info as of 6pm on oct. 3:

we will have "some" used/useable 9 stand, welded rocker assemblies available periodically. These components would have to be good enough for us to use in our own personal projects. We're waiting for the word back from our suppliers as to future availability of any new 9 stand rocker shafts individually. The supply of new welded rockers arms (either intake or exhaust) is non-existent except in a very few pieces randomly available from time to time.

The supplier of reconditioned welded rocker arms can no longer provide those items as the bushings required for the reconditioning process are now out of production. We are looking for alternate sources for that type service but as of now, we can't guarantee a supply of reconditioned welded rockers for the future.

Rocker stands May still be available through regular IH/navistar dealer parts, but are no longer available from the aftermarket parts channels. But since the rocker stands don't wear (they are only scruud over by the po virus), the supply of good used rocker stands should be fairly steady, we do have a source for those from a few core suppliers, likewise for the welded rockers themselves.

New 5 stand rocker assemblies (rockers, shafts, spring, spacers, no stands) are in transit to ihon right now, should be in stock around oct. 8>9. Likewise for push rods in both lengths. Appropriate bolts for plugging the "abandoned" rocker bolt holes in the heads will also be available.

So...9 stand heads can be converted to 5 stand assemblies by using the appropriate conversion parts, conversion push rods of appropriate length, and plugging the unused threaded holes in the head(s).

We will continue to seek alternative sources for these type parts, both new, used (but serviceable), and reconditioned, just like any other IH engine hard part.

Thanks for posting your information ron...nice work!
 
Am I thinking that the shafts can be turned over to go from the welded rocker to the stamped rocker then? Seems like I read that somewhere.
Didn't mean to pass on the wrong info. Sorry:(
 
Np problem, I guess I was more curious about lenght. Puting these heads, rockers and push rods on a motor that had a 9 post on it.
 
Again, converting any I-4/sv head over to a 5 stand rocker assembly is perfectly doable, and in fact, May be the only way of assembling the heads in the future unless ya have a set of used 9 stand rocker assemblies that are useable. Based upon current available service parts supply (new components), that's the only choice we have now.

Rotating the used 9 stand shaft 180* would put the n=8 oil orfices in proper position for the stamped-type rockers arms. But, the remaining 4 bolt holes would have to be permanently plugged in some manner on both sides of the shaft.

Another detail of doing that...if the 9 stand rocker is so badly worn that the riding surface for the stamped rocker which would then be on top of the shaft (with no actual friction contact with the load point on the stamped rocker), the rocker will have a tendency to "rock"/wallow side-to-side on the shaft. That could lead to very slight differences in valve train "geometry"/valve timing vs. The actual camshaft lobe profile.

And...since we already know that the hydraulic lifter system in these motors is very sensitive to changes in overall lifter/cam lobe/push rod/rocker arm/valve tip "length", then lifter tick that cannot be resolved might be induced , most likely regarding only one or two cylinders. Results would be annoying in the least, and over time would lead to the deformation of the valve tip/rocker tip interface.

When looking at used/salvage/core parts such as cylinder heads, we must pay attention to the machining for the rocker stands also. And also properly matching rocker shaft assemblies to their respective heads. Other wise trickledown sets in and that occurs only after having spent mucho dinero for a freshly-machined head! And that's kinda like the attention we need to pay to the engine mount finish machining on the cylinder blocks also!

Brainstorming about this kinda stuff is the only way we can learn the proper workarounds tonka! And we're very fortunate to have folks such as you and ron around here paying attention to this stuff and that have samples and pics to share so we can kick around all the nuances involved! If nobody brings up the subject, then we're not able to work it through and separate "I thinks" from fact!

Keep thinking and tossing out ideas! I promise this will be a hot topic around the ihon firepit next week when we are down there!
 
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Yes you can use those heads on an engine that originally had 9 stand. Provided the engine is equipped with the matching piston design.

The rocker shafts can be turned upside down to use with the other style rockers.

9 stand head can be used with 5 or 9 stand shafts and welded/fabricated or boat/stamped rockers.

5 stand heads can only use 5 stand shafts but can still use either style rocker.

5 vs 9 is a separate thing from welded vs boat. No there doesn't appear to have been welded rockers used with 5 stand from the factory but that doesn't mean you can't. In fact that is why the 9 stand shafts were consolidated with the 5 stand # and why they include the springs, bolts and instructions on how to use the 5 stand shaft in place of the 9 stand units.
 
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As for new parts Jeff, the 9 stand rocker shaft is nla unless there is some nos or aftermarket inventory somewhere (no doubt there is). But currently, the aftermarket is not producing new 9 stand shafts.

Same for the welded rocker arms. And the two major remanners of those items can no longer source the bushings needed for the reman op.

The rocker stands were never an aftermarket item, oem (dealer item). However, in the past, they (along with the stands and welded rockers) were produced at a price point/quantity for the aftermarket where the large engine builders could buy in quantity so they "looked" like they could be had in the aftermarket. That was to support the "contract" engine remanners who did the IH "renew" line of motors and other products. That does not appear to be the case now, but again, some May exist in small quantity at the distribution level.

The spacers of course were always used in these assemblies. But since the 5 stand system eliminates four stands (which also serve as spacers), then the workaround for that is the use of the spacer "springs".

So if ya have a completely usable 9 stand/welded rocker assembly I'd always go with that item! The 5 stand assembly (aftermarket or oem) is a workaround for the nla stuff if the conversion is done correctly.

And incrementally "longer" push rods are available for each type rocker also right now off the shelf to provide a degree of "adjustability" regarding valve train geometry if using a cam grind other than oem. New sv cam blanks are used by many of the grinders...but in the case of the I-4 (152/196) stuff, there are no new blanks being produced anymore, so a weld-up/regrind is the only option there. Thus the "push rod length" deal "May" come into play depending upon the grind spec'd.

We also have a fairly local source for custom push rods of any length and configuration including adjustables.

Many IH engine parts are disappearing from inventory now. Five years ago the stuff was available. There is just no demand in the market any longer, the "enthusiast" market for stuff like this is extremely small, thus the niche market/cottage industries are filling that role, just like we are doing.
 
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