392 build

HPH

New member
Building a improved cooling motor from a 75 pu. At the point of ordering the build kit, from northern auto. Kit will be .030 over - crank 10/10. I think I want the comp cam 260. Can anyone see a reason why that is a bad choice?

Going in a Scout II. Mostly highway miles - weekend trail rig. Will pull a boat every now and then.

33"m/t, 3.73 gears, t-19 wide, carb with dui for now but plan to go FI next year.

I want a mild performance boost (260) but what will it do to mpg? Would the 252 make more since?
For me to go somewhere on the weekend I am looking at 2hrs on the highway to go play then 2 hrs home
 
If you are going to order your parts kit from northern, then work with them regarding your technical requirements.

This site exists to support our current and hopefully future customers and take care of customer service issues and technical support. Does northern do that?

We have every part in stock for building nearly any design level IH engine. You will not see engine kits in our online store because that is not the way we do business. We work with each customer on an individual basis to ensure they order the correct components and receive the correct components, we'll be more than happy to put all that stuff into a single box and call it a kit, it's just not practical given that most of these engines are 35+ years old, have been poorly maintained, and have been scruud over and thrown away by pos time and again. No way to determine "what" parts ya need to build a motor until it's in pieces and the quality level of each parts is a known fact.

We can assemble an engine kit for you according to any design level you wish, from box stock/restoration to a full-built puller motor. And...we have parts that there is no way that northern or most any other parts supplier can provide...ask them what to do about "lifter rattle" and the subtleties of cam bearings in regard to IH products!

We have extensive information posted right here in this sub-forum regarding many camshafts including grind data and also the nuances regarding proper installation. And that is in addition to many engine build threads and the various pitfalls encountered along the way...we do this for a living, not a hobby.

I have the comp 260h grind inna dd 392/Travelall right now (p/n 83-210-4), I don't care what they "claim" for idle quality, I'm here to tell you it's shit! If you are into thumpin' through the parking lot at 7-11 at 900rpm in drive with a high stall converter I guess some would think that's cool. Obviously comp never actually ran and tried to "tune" an IH sv engine with that actual profile installed, they must work from "numbers", not real world.
 
I appreciate your bluntness. When I searched for info on rebuilding a 392 nothing was ever mentioned about IH north. I know you guys have parts, I visit the store site allot to day-dream about stuff I cant afford. I just didn't realize you sale motor parts, just assumed yall but them from northern or rpm like most other people.
Your right their tech guys don't know squat about the IH. I also called comp cams today and that was a huge waste of time!!
So please educate me. My motor is at the machine shop now. They are waiting on me to get parts.
When I called IH north today I wish the the guy on the other end would have mentioned that I can get the build parts there. He did say to get on the forums, which I did, and here we are. I prefer to talk and not type which is why I tried to call to get info today.
Thanks
 
Sorry you were not informed about our engine components we have in stock. Don't know who May have answered the phone down south, but Jeff is the owner and knows every piece that is on the shelves! It's not like him to not let ya know we could handle your parts needs! I'm at a location remote from the actual store in Loomis and handle a lotta the actual parts procurement so I'm fully aware of what we have and can supply.

So let's start this again!

Are you certain that you want to go .030" over on the bore? If so, we can supply the silv-o-lite pistons or anything else that is common.

Jeff and Darren have just completed a semi-high end 392 build for a customer two weeks ago and should have a handle on all parts used. The crank and block on these motors is a very high quality production, there is no need for anything special...same for the rods. Building one of the motors is not like all the scruuin' around that must be done with typical Ford or chev. But the details of all that is in these threads so I won't waste your time regurgitatin'!

Robert kenney (our other moderator) has just completed a high-end 392 build also, some of which is documented here. He got involved with that one well after most of the machine work was done and it involved big bucks spent on heads that would not match the block (the old ic vs. Non-ic deal). Robert builds funnycar motors and stuff of that nature so he looks at this stuff differently than I do, we have a difference of opinion at times and as such folks get both side of the equation around here!

The details of my t'all motor (I didn't build that one it was done in '87 and not run more than 3k miles until two weeks ago) is in post #21 in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/readers-rides/4072-dd-known-chunk.html

That was a cost no object build and with the exception of the balance job was a total waste of money (over $5k in 1988 dinero) in my opinion at this point, I've put about 500 miles on the motor in two weeks. It dam shore don't run like you would think for that kind of effort...the cam is hateful below 1400rpm, idle and tip-in is miserable and that can't be overcome with any protracted carb work. And overall the rig performs no better than the tired/leaky 200k mile 392 in my pickup that has never had the heads off but is tuned to the max fuel and ignition-wise.

The supposed 9.0:1 compression ratio on this decked and blueprinted motor is gonna require premium fuel no matter what. I spend far more time dealing with IH ignition and carburetion on this stuff every day than anyone in the country right now (we'll be offering ihon mag trigger distributor conversions for the efi apps later this summer). I hate having to run premium, but unless a magic bullet comes along that kills this shitforgas e10 we're forced into, that 9 point compression ratio is something I'd never go for today. These motors are drivers and pullers, not drag race schnizz and trailer queens. Can ya feel the difference and 8.3 and 9.0 compression? I don't think so but the detonation that can only be cured by running premium can be felt in the cost-per-mile. Ya can't tune out the rattle by scruuin' with ignition, the cam won't play nice at all. So all I can do is dial back timing that prevents taking advantage of any potential for performance this motor "might" have! And for use on the trail, it would be totally unacceptable, it might be ok for a tow rig, that remains to be seen.

If I was scratchbuildin' a 392 for daily use right now (or 345 or 304), the only real dollars I'd spend would be for a balance job and the mildest "rv" cam I can find. These heads simply will not breathe to take advantage of anything else without spending another $4k for major port work, the intake tract is a deal-breaker.

If I was going for max hp, I'd build a 440 chrysler marine block motor and make some real hp and that is a near-drop-in swap! The "b" marine (or motorhome app) engine is as bulletproof as any IH motor ever cast and has potential out of any catalog!

On the other hand, I am building a 152 stroker just for the hell of it and something that is totally impractical. The point is prove (or dis-prove) what "might" be available from these engines. It's gonna be a total toy, not a practical user for anything other than the bling factor. But the inherent strength in these blocks and cranks makes it doable without all the typical high-end stuff needed for chevs. This is a motor that could live on nitrous if called upon.

So make up a parts list in conjunction with your engine guy. The list would include basic stuff that we ship every day...a mild cam, the pistons, durabond in 11 cam bearings, appropriate rods and mains depending upon if your crank is just polished out or actually ground (size tbd), johnson lifters (no others), isky or comp valve springs (if valve springs are needed, your head guy will know what), fel-pro gasket set (no secret there), oil pump rebuild set (and then shim the oil pump regulator spring as we describe elsewhere in this sub-forum), and a brass soft plug set. Pistons tbd based upon finished bore size desired and compression ratio.

The critical part of this deal...cam bearing install/verification. And rocker assembly condition/installation. Those areas are the life of these engines. The timing set can be reused in 90% of the cases since it's a gear drive. The aftermarket cam must be degreed in during install, we have seen some anomalies with the popular "name brand" cam grinds, the ihon grinds we supply have not had that issue...yet!
 
Ok, I am not a motor head and a lot of the tech goes over my head. Maybe I should call and cancel what I ordered today, its just what is on their web site $1000.00
the engine shop hot tanked & magnifluxed the block and heads. Said everything is good and to bore .030 over. Already had the crank re grind 10/10. The machine work has not been done yet. Said to order a "build kit" and bring in parts then they will do machine work.
What I want... Solid Scout that can be a dd and trail rig thats going to last for the next 10-15 years. I like something thats peppy, but doesn't cost a fortune to drive around. Regular pump gas! I am in texas and currently use (rebuilt 8y-old 304) 87 octane (cheep) gas. I want to build it and forget it, I do like to work on my Scout but not constantly tune on it.
I do not know what to order... Why I need advise. What do you recommend? How much will it cost? And I will cancel my order at northern and give you a cc#
please forgive me but I do not have the will power to sit here all night reading a million post. If you direct me to some that relate to my situation I will read.
 
ok, I am not a motor head and a lot of the tech goes over my head. Maybe I should call and cancel what I ordered today, its just what is on their web site $1000.00
the engine shop hot tanked & magnifluxed the block and heads. Said everything is good and to bore .030 over. Already had the crank re grind 10/10. The machine work has not been done yet. Said to order a "build kit" and bring in parts then they will do machine work.
What I want... Solid Scout that can be a dd and trail rig thats going to last for the next 10-15 years. I like something thats peppy, but doesn't cost a fortune to drive around. Regular pump gas! I am in texas and currently use (rebuilt 8y-old 304) 87 octane (cheep) gas. I want to build it and forget it, I do like to work on my Scout but not constantly tune on it.
I do not know what to order... Why I need advise. What do you recommend? How much will it cost? And I will cancel my order at northern and give you a cc#
please forgive me but I do not have the will power to sit here all night reading a million post. If you direct me to some that relate to my situation I will read.

I'm a 5th gen texian myself, and there is a 6th and 7th gen messa folks (kids and grands) that are still there up around texarkana. I don't live there anymore 'cause the weather suks and here I got salmon, trout, and steelhead in my front yard and it's always green.

I'll be back tomorrow with a shopping list recommendation, I got one more carburetor to finish up tonite.
 
here I got salmon, trout, and steelhead in my front yard and it's always green./quote]
Sweet!
My Scout has driven the majority of the texas coast line in search of fat specks.
Thanks I will be looking for your post tomorrow
 
here I got salmon, trout, and steelhead in my front yard and it's always green./quote]
Sweet!
My Scout has driven the majority of the texas coast line in search of fat specks.
Thanks I will be looking for your post tomorrow

Momma and me do the specks and spot-tail reds on occasion on the fly outta port aransas...port a ain't changed much since the 60's unlike sopadre which is to be avoided at all costs and is no longer part of tejas in my world...kinda like dallas at the beach. We hope to make a roadtrip back for a month or so at xmas-time, be down arount san antone/austin also, ma and pa are still alive up north of foatwuth.

A "stock" build but very careful assembly will do all that you desire and give ya 200k miles with normal maintenance!

If you have already had the block crack-check done, that is a plus and imperative. The heads on those motors are terrible for cracks in the combustion chambers so make sure they are magged also. Same for the front and rear drilled/tapped "ears" on the castings where the exhaust manifolds mount, a very weak area on the castings.

Since the motor is a side-mount '75 vintage pickup, make certain that the block pads are drilled/tapped for Scout II engine mounts, you May need to drill/tap holes for that so ya don't have surprises down the line, there are variations in these engines and since the 392 was never meant for a Scout II (and the '74 and later production motors are different in the mount department)

cam bearing positioning is the lifeblood of these motors, we have much information regarding that is this sub-forum including many pics. Turn your machine shop dude onto this section for review and he'll understand these motors are unlike other deetrot iron in that regard. Same for the purification ritual for the rocker shaft assemblies along with correct match-up of components.

To be honest, we are not gonna be able to beat northern's price on these parts...but we do offer the best in customer support, spend some time around here and you will quickly understand that. I believe there was some misunderstanding when you called about parts since you advised you had already bought parts elsewhere. When dealing in special interest stuff like this, there re very few knowledge bases that know IH stuff. We share our knowledge quite readily with customers, that is why we exist..., this forum is not a place to go hang out and bs and bench-wrench though sumtimes we do that too!

If this were my own engine build, I'd have a nice three-angle valve job done with very close attention paid to proper "installed valve height" as the valve train on these motors is non-adjustable in any fashion. If it's not right, the lifters are gonna rattle.

I'd have the heads "trued" but otherwise left alone and retain whatever cr is provided by the replacement pistons. There is no need for any piston other than a stock-type cast unit. The motors will not rev to place any kind of stress on the internal components since they are super-duty parts to begin with (relatively speaking).

All the parts I use in my own work here are right off the shelf from ihon. There are very few "options" to be found today regarding parts by "brand name", there never were many aftermarket suppliers of IH components as there was in reality, no market for such, these motors were not mainstream passenger car engines and as such the oem-level parts were extremely high end to begin with. No one in their right mind ever built a "high performance" IH motor on a routine basis as there was no demand. What was demanded, was an engine that would run under maximum load hour after hour for 200k miles, quite a feat for a gasoline engine in a truck or school bus! Fuel economy back in the day was of absolutely no concern and ya can't make one of these motors less thirsty.

For your rotating assembly, whatcha need are:

1) pistons (0.30" over) and rings to match, oem design crown for retaining compression ratio.

2) full engine gasket set for improved cooling (ic) motor (very important as the head gaskets don't interchange and includes all seals).

3) oil pump rebuild kit.

4) cam bearings (those will be durabond in 11).

5) 0.010" undersize rod and main bearings.

6) lifters, either johnson or clevite, must have radiused running surface in order to provide proper rotation.

7) timing gear set (only if your machinist has verified that there is wear present in what you currently have, otherwise re-install for another 200k miles!).

8) brass soft plug kit (does not include plugs for the heads or the welch plugs in the underside of the intake manifold).

9) replacement water tubes for ic motor if yours are rotted at all (the "o" rings are in the gasket set).

10) cam...all I can say is what I would not use...and I've already mentioned that! Any cam other than an exact oem replacement is gonna have slightly altered idle characteristics, that just has to be accepted. Talk to Jeff/Darren regarding the cam used in that recently completed 392 they did and see what their opinion is regarding performance/idle. I did the carb for that motor which is an aftermarket performance unit and not the oem smog-carb which is really not suitable for an engine build such as this.
 
Love this thread, I'm starting my own 392 build to replace my 304 and now I know who to call for parts...

Excellent...
 
Some more first hand cam info:
I have 2 scouts both with 345s. Stock intakes, no headers. I rebuilt the '74 about 20 years ago. Stock rebuild with an isky 256 grind. The '79 has a fresh rebuild with a slight bump in compression (9-1). Otherwise stock. This one got a comp cams xe 4x4 grind. The mildest grind on the page (x4250h).
The '74 has a t-18, 3.73s, and 33s. It pulls like a diesel from 400 rpms up. Idles smooth. A perfect cam in my opinion.
The '79 has a GM 700r4. 1200 stall converter, 3.54s and 33s. This cam also idles perfectly stock. Seems to have generous torque like the isky, though its hard to quantify with the automatic. And it really wants 4.11s. A little sluggish on the freeway currently.
Look up the specs for each and see what your motor guy thinks. I could be happy with either one if I did it again.
Let us know how it goes!
 
I'm about to tear down a 392 (non ic) engine to being my build to replace my 304.

I'm a Chevy man, and this is my first IH engine. What are the things I need to look for, besides your typical engine wear. Are there anything specific to IH engines that I need to check for?

Block and heads will go get checked and fluxed of course...

I'm not too concerned about it being a non-ic as it's a 95% trail rig 5% street, and I don't think the "hot spots" the ic addressed will be a concern for me.
 
I'm about to tear down a 392 (non ic) engine to being my build to replace my 304.

I'm a Chevy man, and this is my first IH engine. What are the things I need to look for, besides your typical engine wear. Are there anything specific to IH engines that I need to check for?

Block and heads will go get checked and fluxed of course...

I'm not too concerned about it being a non-ic as it's a 95% trail rig 5% street, and I don't think the "hot spots" the ic addressed will be a concern for me.

This can be better addressed in your own thread, and normally an unrelated post in someone else's thread is called a hijack. :d start the teardown in a thread in reader's rides, and as long as you're not trying to get it all done in one day I'm sure the combined experience of this forum can see you through it 100%.

I would recommend reading as much as possible between now and then, otherwise someone will basically repeat this last bit of advice in your own thread: use the search engine (utfse), dig up more info!
 
Understood about the whole hijack thing, but this thread was recently resurrected by me, so I didn't think I was hijacking...I figured having everything in one thread would be nice for someone in the future going through the same thing.

I've done a ton of research so far, just hoping the experts at IH north, where I am going to be buying my parts, May have wanted to chime in, since they've dealt with a ton of rebuilds, and this is my first IH engine rebuild.

No biggie...fabbing my cage/bumpers/sliders first....304 runs, so 392 teardown will be soon. I'll start a detailed thread with pics.
 
I don't believe there is a single issue regarding building an ihc-produced I-4/sv engine that has not been covered in this sub-forum. Including all the stuff that specific to these products and completely different as compared to any chryfordrolet.

Several engine build threads have been posted in the past, take the time to read every thread to educate yourself.

There is no difference in any performance or engine cooling situation regarding ic vs. Non-ic 392 motors. The issue is matching proper heads with the proper blocks! That is all.

Any 392 will cool just fine with an oem-design level heat exchanger package, the radiator in the Scout II is about 20% less heat exchange capacity as compared to a pickall and is perfectly adequate for the job.

345 and 392 heads are somewhat prone to cracking if the engine experiences severe overheat. So it's imperative that heads be magged thoroughly paying attention to the combustion chambers.
 
How can you tell if a 392 is an improved cooling version?
Is there some casting # or is a visual inspection the only way?
Water tube placement?
Thanks,
 
The coolant tubes will go to the block, not the heads. Search Robert kenney's posts. He has some good pics of I/c, non-I/c blocks.
 
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