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345 rebuild

ornelles

Member
Hello all,
just got a call from the machine shop, they said the block I turned in was severely worn and would need a .060 bore over. Will this engine handle that much without any problems? Also, dos IH only sell master rebuild kits for the 345? Need everything but cam/lifters/springs/timing gears (got that in a comp cams kit) still waiting on more info about crank grinding and journal sizing and such for ordering bearings, had one flat lobe on cam, one going flat, the rest showed lots of wear, cam bearings cam out in pieces when cam was pulled out. I hope I can save this motor.:icon_sad:
 
.060" over is no problem. I just did it. Contact the boys, and they'll take care of you on parts.

Read up on the cam bearing/oiling posts. Make sure you understand how important it is to get these bearings lined up correctly to oil the rockers properly. Seriously. If you can't explain yourself to your machinist, there's a good chance he'll miss it and you'll end up with a lot heartbreak and suffering.

On the crank, see how much (if any) it needs to be ground. If it were mine, I would offset grind it to add some more stroke. Say it needs .020" to clean it up. The pistons are probably more than that down in the hole at tdc. Probably over .030". Offset grinding would add .020" to the stroke, and get the pistons that much higher in the bore. This will add a pinch of compression. That, along with the .060 overbore should get you somewhere in the high 8.xx:1. You'll need to mock up the block and piston combo first to be sure. Run this by your guy and see what he thinks. You won't be in this motor again, so you might as well hit all the tricks the first time.
 

ornelles

Member
Thanks for the info! Any other things I should try and get done while im tearing it down? Also im getting the heads redone as well as putting in a comp cams kit #83-201-4 running stock 2210c carb. Had an auto, pretty sure its toast though, trans fluid looked like 80,000 mile motor oil when I drained it, lots of chunks and burned smell. I am thinking of putting t-19 instead.
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
thanks for the info! Any other things I should try and get done while im tearing it down? Also im getting the heads redone as well as putting in a comp cams kit #83-201-4 running stock 2210c carb. Had an auto, pretty sure its toast though, trans fluid looked like 80,000 mile motor oil when I drained it, lots of chunks and burned smell. I am thinking of putting t-19 instead.
An oem 22xx carb ain't gonna work worth shit with any cam other than oem timing numbers. Those are total emissions carbs and can't be turned iinto any sport of "perforamnce" carb. The comp 83-201-4 cam is 1 260/260 duration unit and idle is going to be ragged even with a proper carb. I'm fighting that battle now regarding a 392 in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/readers-rides/4072-dd-known-chunk.html

And I have a good friend that has basically the same motor built in his t'all/392 running a thermoquad carb I built a while back. The idle quality on that one is identical to mine.

That 260 cam grind might be "mild" for a chryfordrolet motor but for an IH tractor motor it's pretty lumpy until ya get past tip-in. And you must degree that cam when installing, you May find it's been ground up to 4* retarded and that will need to be compensated.

An IH sv block that needs a 0.060" overbore to clean up must have already been bored once before. Or...a wrist pin gouged a cylinder wall??? Or it swallowed sumthin' and fooked the cylinder? These blocks will not wear like that in even abusive use.

We have every part needed for an engine build on the shelf except odd-wad pistons. And 0.060" are odd-wad. Those would have to be ordered and each cylinder bored, then finish honed to it's mating piston after careful measuring.

Virtually every possible scenario regarding either a stock rebuild or performance build has been covered in various threads in the engine tech sub-forum.
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
On another note on the comp IH grinds. The comp 260h is a lot bigger than an isky 262.

Comp misses the valve lift .44 is truley .483 lift because of the rocker arm ratio they use. The duration at .050 of the comp 260 is 212* ie. The isky 262 is 208*. Either will idle smooth as a babies but in a sbc but in a IH with 1.7 rocker ratio in your IH the cam will respond like it is about 4-6* larger @.050 or 216* 218* duration for comp 260. I would expect a bit of lope but only a slight touch. Either way an emissions carb won't be even close to right.
 

ornelles

Member
Alright, thanks for the good info, looks like the 2210c is out the door, will a 2300 work for awhile till I can afford a 4 barrel upgrade. (seems alot of my rebuild money is going to be sunk into machine work instead of other parts):mad:

as for the previous bore....none of the pistons where marked with any kind of overbore. Wrist pins all were good, a bit sloppy, all bearings showed extreme wear. One piston had a valley around the whole piston wall, half way down the cylinder thats why the machinist said it would have to go .060 the groove was extremely deep and wide. Crazy thing is the engine was running pretty smooth, had rough time when cold, dead cylinder, think that was the flat cam lobe, once warmed up it ran very smooth, exhaust was clean after warm up, heavy black clouds while cold, carb was jacked up behind help I think, fouled plugs in minutes, turned black within 10 minutes of idle.
 

ornelles

Member
Ha! I had this "sickness" back in 1987 when I had my dads old 73 Scout II, thought I got over it, then the wife buys me a 78 while im in afghanistan as a birthday present....if she only knew what that meant at the time!
 

Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
alright, thanks for the good info, looks like the 2210c is out the door, will a 2300 work for awhile till I can afford a 4 barrel upgrade. (seems alot of my rebuild money is going to be sunk into machine work instead of other parts):mad:

as for the previous bore....none of the pistons where marked with any kind of overbore. Wrist pins all were good, a bit sloppy, all bearings showed extreme wear. One piston had a valley around the whole piston wall, half way down the cylinder thats why the machinist said it would have to go .060 the groove was extremely deep and wide. Crazy thing is the engine was running pretty smooth, had rough time when cold, dead cylinder, think that was the flat cam lobe, once warmed up it ran very smooth, exhaust was clean after warm up, heavy black clouds while cold, carb was jacked up behind help I think, fouled plugs in minutes, turned black within 10 minutes of idle.
That explains it!

Something was down the hole and ate the cylinder wall. That condition is not caused by pre-ignition or detonation, especially in only one cylinder.

I really see no reason to go with a 4v manifold unless ya want the bling. In the case of these engines, unless you are building a high-end "puller" motor that won't see street use, a properly set up 2v carb system will work just fine.

Spend the cash for a performance ignition system worthy of a fresh motor, that will make more difference in seat-of-the-pants than anything else.

The Holley list 7448 2v modular carb you see references to all over this forum is the go-to unit for what you are doing. That is the 350cfm-rated unit.

However...considering the cam you are using, it's "possible" that the list 4412, 500cfm-rated mixer might actually work on the fresh 345. It does not work well on a stock/tired 345.

I can't say positively because I've not personally tried a combo like that. But...in the next several days, I'll be installing a 4412 on my 392 using an adapter so that I can play around with this combo and see what happens. The difference between the 345 and the 392 would be inconsequential in this regard...the cams are the same though my motor has a slight bump in the cr (9.0:1 so the build sheet sez), I still run regular grade fuel in it, I won't build anything for street use that can't run regular.

And I have no idea if the cam in my motor was actually degreed-in during installation (I doubt it!). The motor was built by a so-called "reputable" performance engine builder 22 years ago and then the vehicle set after accumulating less than 3k miles and was only brought back to life a few months ago. Thus Robert and I have had this same discussion regarding the 260h comp grind and the crappy idle quality in regards to the IH tractor motor.

However, this motor still had the oem smog carb on it which in no way would ever work properly. And that carb has been totally built by me with several "mods" to try and improve drivability, it simply won't work. So the engine builder did not deal with the most important part of the equation originally and I'm 90% certain that is why the vehicle was parked and then essentially abandoned. More to come on whether a proper carb setup with this particular cam will make it play nice!

What is your time frame here for your engine completion? I might be able to "front" ya a 4412 Holley to try at no expense to ya other than shipping...a "loaner". But I want to try one first on my motor and see what happens. I do the "loaner" deal on occasion for our customers so they can play around with stuff before making a final purchase. We don't loan engines or transmissions though! My loaner 4412 is currently out on loan and installed onna 304 just to provide a fresh carb that will run the motor for testing, but it will be back here at the shop real soon, I have two others that I just need to assemble and complete.

Robert knows all this "cam stuff" far mo'-better than I do, he'sa student of some of the real pros in the cam bizz and builds funnycar motors as a sideline/hobby also! We have alotta fun around here with our customers, but we don't sling worthless bullshit about IH motorbuildin'!
 

ornelles

Member
Cool! Not sure how long on the machine work, the guy is doing some pre boring to make sure that .060 will work. Still no guarantees he can save the motor yet. If all goes well (but does it ever with engines?) perhaps three weeks to month before I can start putting it back together. I am looking at a 392 option I just located if the 345 ends up going to the scrap heap.

Looks like the 345 is out the window, got a great deal today, 1972 2wd Travelall with 392 and auto, plus two more 392 long blocks, plus the Travelall is full of other parts, heads and such for 345, for 300 bucks. Going to swap over to the 392 now.
 
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ornelles

Member
Okay, here we go, got the 392 from the travel all out yesterday, took off the valve covers, rocker arms totaly rusted...not a good sign I am thinking, ran the oilpump for a while, saw oil out the drivers side, plus oil in valley, lubed up inside pistons through spark plug holes, (had to crank it over to get the torque off), would not crank at all by hand, had to pull rockers off then it cranked fairly smoothly with pry bar. The question I have now is.....I have 4 sets of heads, three 9 stand heads and one 5 stand head set (has the screws in), along with all rocker arm assemblies that go with them. Two sets are for 392 and 2 for 345, can I put a 345 head on a ic 392? And which set is best, 9 stand stamped rockers or 5 stand boat type? I have three sets of 9 stand and one and half 5 stand assemblies (travel all was full of parts when I towed it home.)
any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
steve:out:
 
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Michael Mayben

IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
An ic 392 block,....must use ic heads. No way any other heads match the jacketing and the head gaskets are significantly different. We've addressed this issue several times in other threads in this same sub-forum.

There is no such thing as "five stand heads" and "nine stand heads". All heads are drilled/tapped for nine stands. The five stand versions simply have threaded plugs installed in the unused holes.

I personally prefer to use nine stand rocker assemblies with the welded rockers and appropriate pushrods in the motors I build. But for most folks it comes down to what parts they have that are usable, we have new boat rocker shafts in stock, we can't get new welded rocker shafts, nor can we get new or remanufactured welded rockers.

Again...all this "rocker/shaft/lifter/pushrod" stuff has been addressed over and over here in the engine tech sub-forum.
 

ornelles

Member
I read over all those other threads, I just never saw where anyone had said "this is better than that" and why, thats why I asked about which is better. If you recomend the 9 stand with welded rockers I'll go that route, I have 3 left and right sets of the welded rockers with stands and shafts sitting in an old oil pan, I am pretty sure I can scrape together two good sets out of that. I did notice you where running out of the stands, I am sure I will have alot of extra of those after I am done, do you offer some kind of credit for sending in all the leftover parts? I also have a ton of push rods as well, ball/ball and ball/socket types.
Also, just posted some pics of a set of heads I have in the basement, trying to figure out if they are ic or not, last pic is a 345 head next to the one in question.
Thanks
 

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ornelles

Member
Thanks! I went through the other thread, didnt see alot in there about the heads, I appreciate the fast response.
 

Robert Kenney

Super Moderator
You are right, not as much about the heads but figured in the context of your question you could see the block differences also.
 

ornelles

Member
I looked through it and used it to figure out ive got an ic 392 block and a 345 block that I pulled out of some dudes tool shed. There was also 3 sets of heads in the back of an old travel all I bought from him, now I know two sets of ic 392 and one set of 345, the other set of ic 392 is tore up however, got a broken valve stem stuck in the guide, rust throughout......... Probably junk. Next question I have is does anyone know where to get main caps for a 392 and a 345 block? Are they the same? Will used ones be okay to put on there?
 

ornelles

Member
Well, here goes the news, pulled the 392 apart.....some of the lifters where so bowled I could use them for breakfast cereal, couple of cam lobes flat...po had left the hood off and carb uncovered.......water in intake manifold led to mass of rust in bottom of plenum.....water made its way to the first two pistons on passenger side, front of engine, rusted on piston walls.....praying some honing will clean it up. Cam bearings totally shot, chunks in oil pan, looks like someone chisled at them when I got the cam out....good news....main bearings and rod bearings had been replaced recently, still in great shape except for some gouging caused by po cranking engine without pre oiling it. Need to replace all them. How long does it take to ship bearings to alaska? Oh, carb complete froze and nastified. Will be replacing that with edelbrock perhaps. Looks like its almost time to order some parts, need headers, engine mounts, trans mount, carb, few other things. Also, complete valve job in order as well, good thing is has hardended seats already installed. Nother month and maybe will be able to fire it up!!! Cant wait.
 

ornelles

Member
Okay, just wanted to update......got the 392 cleaned up, just got done lapping the valves/seats, got them sealing very nicely, no valve job required...that was a relief, got he heads on and torqued in today, oil pan on, timing cover/balancer on.(not in picture however) slowly puttting this thing back together, will be sending my Holley 4150 off to mm for his miracle work. New cam, comp h260 grind. New bearings all around, oil pump rebuilt. 727 back from rebuild at shop, new torque converter. Got my headers and engine/transimission mounts form iho the other day hopefully will be able to use them soon trying to get that engine in the Scout before butt nasty cold weather sets in around here.
 

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