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Old 08-11-2010, 08:33 PM   #31
Mastiff
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Right now I've got an msd6 going with this coil:

msd ignition 8222 - msd blaster high vibration ignition coils - overview - summitracing.com

I think you are saying that this is not the right coil to get the most from the msd?

Also, what should I look for to know whether my delco distributor is in good mechanical shape?

Great stuff!
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:10 AM   #32
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastiff View Post
right now I've got an msd6 going with this coil:

msd ignition 8222 - msd blaster high vibration ignition coils - overview - summitracing.com

I think you are saying that this is not the right coil to get the most from the msd?

Also, what should I look for to know whether my delco distributor is in good mechanical shape?

Great stuff!
It's all in the specifications for coils, not in the smokeblowbullshit marketing hype.

The msd 8222 coil you have chosen has a primary resistance factor of a nominal 0.70ohms, so that is a nice match for the 6 series cd box. That is considered a "low" primary resistance coil. Low is a figurative term meaning it's much lower resistance than an oem canister coil which for an I-4 application would be in the 2.5>3.0ohm range when used in inductive ignition mode.

That coil cannot be used in any fashion as a simple replacement for a stock breaker point system, no matter how many ballast resistors ya stack on the wire run! It must be used only with the msd 6 (or similar) box.

Delco distributors are generally bulletproof and the most durable of all similar units. The biggest issue that I see with any distributor is extremely excessive endplay (up and down movement of the shaft). I set up all IH distributors (whether cast iron as in the delco or aluminum) for an endplay of no more than 0.015". That is done after total disassembly/inspection and cleaning.

Second most common issue is the breaker plate and vacuum advance operation. The breaker plate must be clean and free to rotate when actuated by the vacuum can and the ground system must be perfectly clean, any resistance introduced into the ground path from lack of service and cleanliness will kill a breaker point ignition, the total resistance through the point wire, through the points to ground must be as low as possible (under 1.0 ohm). Typical new breaker point sets have a resistance of between 1.0 and more than 3.0 ohms due to microscopic manufacturing debris and anti-corrosion lube left over from the manufacturing process. New breaker point sets must always be cleaned before installation. The tungsten contacts get burnished with a strip of flexstone (made for that purpose) or 320 emery paper, then douched with contact cleaner and tested with an ohmmeter on the bench and after installation.

A delco I-4 distributor must have dwell set to 70*>74*, that is considerably different compared to the dwell setting for the Holley I-4 sparker.
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Last edited by Michael Mayben; 08-12-2010 at 08:16 AM..
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:41 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

So if I can lift the rotor up and down like 1/4", that's bad right? Do you have delco rebuilds I can trade mine for (plus money)?
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:43 AM   #34
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastiff View Post
so if I can lift the rotor up and down like 1/4", that's bad right? Do you have delco rebuilds I can trade mine for (plus money)?
Regarding a delco distributor (either I-4 or sv) if the rotor moves vertically at all when pulled up then that indicates issues with distributor vertical endplay. The delco distributor is assembled completely different compared to an IH/Holley which does exhibit some vertical movement due to the design of the mechanical advance unit.

Actual endplay can only be measured by removing the distributor and inserting a thickness gauge between the bottom end of the lower housing and the top of the drive gear.

I completed an I-4 delco build just two days ago complete with a pertronix conversion and new vacuum advance. That one had 3/16" endplay which is huge. That allows the ignition timing to "wander" approximately 4* between minimum and maximum thrust on the drive gear.

Currently I have no I-4 delco units ready to go, but I do have a few sv delcos that are fresh and "incompletes". That means no unipoint set is installed so that the customer May specify either points or a pertronix conversion.

I always prefer to rebuild the customers components as we know they are correct for the application (generally). Cost to rebuild a delco is $65 plus parts. Customer needs to specify if they want it finished in primer, IH red, satin black, or gloss black. Any other color add $10. The paint is an industrial implement enamel that resembles powder coat.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:20 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

The one with pertronix is accounted for? I don't mind rebuilding mine, I just wanted to avoid the down time if I could.

I'll probably ask you to install the pertronix while your at it, since I understand the distributor needs to be partially disassembled for that anyway.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:44 AM   #36
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastiff View Post
the one with pertronix is accounted for? I don't mind rebuilding mine, I just wanted to avoid the down time if I could.

I'll probably ask you to install the pertronix while your at it, since I understand the distributor needs to be partially disassembled for that anyway.
The I-4 distributor I did a few days ago was for a friend that lives in the area and has six Scout 80 rigs, we'll be building some additional distributors for him in the future so he can get at least three of 'em mobile. And several 1904 carbs also.

The installation of the magnet ring on a pertronix install in a delco is somewhat tedious. The distributor endplay must be corrected first, then the magnet ring is a selective-fit mounting. If it's not done right, then the magnet ring will crash into the p-tron module and wipe it. The mount kit includes some distributor shims and makes this sound easy. For the average diy'r it's an impossible setup since they have no way of removing the distributor gear without damage! One more case of bogus pertronix instructions in my opinion.
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:25 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

With an msd 6, the "r" port on the starter is a no-connect, right? I'm planning my complete rewire.
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:54 AM   #38
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastiff View Post
with an msd 6, the "r" port on the starter is a no-connect, right? I'm planning my complete rewire.
When installing a msd 6 series box, there is no connection to any starter/starter relay/solenoid terminal. It needs an ignition-switched b+ feed only. It uses no type of "bypass" in the "start" circuit at all as does the ihc-produced oem ignition system.

Some ignition switches don't incorporate a "bridging" feature internally which means b+ is applied on both the "start" and the "run" circuits. So you must verify that the switched b+ feed you select to tap is "hot" in both the start and the run key switch positions, otherwise it won't start as no current is applied in the start position. Use a test light to verify a proper b+ signal is available in both ignition switch positions.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:10 AM   #39
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

My key switch has b+ input and (s)tart, (I)gnition, and (a)ccessory outputs. There's a backward detent for (a) only, then an (I) detent foreward and (s) momentary. In the (I) position, (a) and (I) are powered; in (s) mode, (s) and (I) are powered. I think this is convenient and how I want it. I'll connect the msd/pertronix to the (I) output.

My question was mostly from the starter perspective. I'm going to have the r port with absolutely nothing attached. I guess that's not surprising since newer starters don't even have the port, I think.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:24 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

M/m, I was noticing the e-core coil in the pics in this post. Which I have been reading meticulously for days over and over.
I'm getting ready to install an msd 6a box and was trying to read the numbers on that coil. I'm thinking its a 8207. If so please let me know, I've looked at the 8207 and its great for the msd box. Just wanted to know what that one was. Thanks for the info . Brad
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:32 PM   #41
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Yes, the coils I'm currently using are msd 8207 obtained locally from o'reilly:

msd blaster ss coil - 8207

With the exception of the color, it's the same coil as this one sold under the mallory banner:

promaster high output coil (8207m) | promaster e-series | mallory
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:00 PM   #42
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Good deal, they are available here in stock from our local speed shop for 36.00 + tax. Pickin one up tonite . Ready to do this shnizz.
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Old 01-28-2011, 03:46 PM   #43
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Question Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Ok before I get to deep in this shizz, my 345 has the prestolite electronic diz. Works great. Ready to install the msd 6a got my 8207 coil fabbed up the bracket to mount it.
Now big question. Can I use the prestolite and if so, which wire goes where. Or am I gonna need to switch back to my point diz with the pertronics conversion or the original point diz.
I also want to keep the prestolite cap. I read somewhere it can be indexed by removing the square tab on the inner rim. Correct?
Thanks for the info brad
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Old 01-28-2011, 04:25 PM   #44
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

With the prestolite distributor, the fresh msd coil, and an msd 6 box, you will have everything needed for an ultimate ignition system.

Do not use the white wire coming out of the distributor. The red wire is positive, the brown wire is negative. So wire it exactly as shown in the msd instructions on the last page of the msd instruction set. The red wire will go to the smaller red wire on the msd box, the brown wire will go to the small white wire on the msd box.

If you are using a prestolite cap, on a prestolite distributor, then juts leave the cap alone!
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Old 01-28-2011, 05:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Ignition System Performance Upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
with the prestolite distributor, the fresh msd coil, and an msd 6 box, you will have everything needed for an ultimate ignition system.!
I like it when the word ultimate is used.
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