IH PARTS AMERICA
Click Here!

Go Back   IH PARTS AMERICA > Tech Forums > Ignition Tech
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Photo Gallery IH Store Home

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2017, 01:46 PM   #1
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Afternoon everybody I've got a 78 Scout with a 345 v8 an automatic transmission. Two barrel Holley carburetor number 2210. Fresh professional rebuild.
Engine only runs well with a crazy amount of timing. Like 30 initial or 24 without the vacuum hooked up.
Even at this setting there is a bad mid range drivability problems with bogging ad hesitation.
I've looked at all the obvious things like a vacuum leak. I had the carburetor professionally rebuilt. I've checked top dead center on the compression cycle of number eight and everything checks out fine.
If I take out timing the bog and hesitation gets worse. If I add more timing it gets better.
It's a holly distributor with a prestolite cap. New wires new plugs new new rotor converted to per tronics electronics ignition
none of these things have helped it's still wants a lot of timing and I cannot get rid of the hesitation and bog.
I've done a compression test on the motor and everything seems fine. I've tried changing the distributor a tooth and it ran much worse so I'm thinking everything is stabbed correctly
so does anyone know how much mechanical advance I should get out of the distributor? Also how much is the vacuum can worth?
Runs absolutely perfect with no load on the engine. The mid range bog and hesitation only happens under load I.e. While driving the truck.

I'm wondering if a spring and bushing change on the dizzy would help? I have a musclecar background so I'm familiar with screwing with advance curves and changing stuff like that. I just need to know what the factory baseline and then maybe I can adjust from there. Thanks for all your help
maybe I set it up so it gets a shit load of timing real early in the rpm range. Right now with all this timing it's getting it's still not detonating or diesel when shut off. And it runs cold.
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 02:43 PM   #2
FDChappie
Senior Member
 
FDChappie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Member Number: 3742
Location: Northern New California
Posts: 1,577
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Are you aware that IH engines are timed of cylinder 8?
__________________
1974 Scout II 345 T-19
1971 Travelette 392 T-36
1972 Loadstar 1700 dump truck 345 T-35
FDChappie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 03:59 PM   #3
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Thank you. Yes.# 8 at tdc on comp stroke and timed off of it.
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 08:27 PM   #4
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

You say fresh professional rebuild...of what? The engine? The carb? Both? Gotta be more specific.

That much initial static timing is never going to have a happy ending with one these engines. You're damn near all in at idle, when at most you should have maybe 10 or 12 degrees of advance. Something's really screwy. Either the distributor is mis-stabbed or the camshaft wasn't properly degreed when it was installed.
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2017, 03:09 AM   #5
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Thank you so cowboy. The carburetor was rebuilt. The engine is original with 80,000 miles.
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2017, 07:39 AM   #6
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

That helps narrow it down. Do you have a tach to tell what your engine idle speed is? Do you have a vacuum gauge you can connect to measure manifold vacuum?
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2017, 02:43 PM   #7
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Thanks for the help. Here's what I have. All these values are static and vacuum advance. The vacuum can gives me about 8 to 10. All we're done in neutral with engine warmed up properly . I don't have a tachometer but these are pretty good estimate of rpm when going into gear the rpm drops about 150 to 200 and timing drops off a couple degrees due to the variation in rpm

20 deg ,600rpm , steady 17" on vac : runs like shit under load

28 deg,700rpm,steady 19" on vac: runs a lot better with some bogging and hesitation about 30%-50% into throttle under load

32deg,800rpm,steady 20" vac: runs really well with only minor bogging and hesitation at about 30 to 50% throttle under load

at the 32 Mark I went ahead and rev the engine up with timing light. It seems to be mechanical advance gives it another 10 to 12. So total for advance with vacuum is around 44 when revved to max advance.
Motor idles great and pulles great vacuum. Unfortunately with all the timing it's a little hard to start and it'll crank over several times before grabbing . It never gets hot and I never hear any detonation or pinging. It never diesels or runs on when the key is turned off !
I'm at my wits end with this thing and any help is much appreciated.....
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 08:23 AM   #8
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Pretty good vacuum. The timing index on the engine only goes to 25. How are you seeing numbers larger than that? There aren't any switches or settings on your timing light that could possibly be influencing what you're seeing, like a cylinder number selection or dialback feature? What kind of timing light are you using?
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 09:00 AM   #9
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

I have a dial back time light . So I always use the 0 timing Mark on the balancer and then use my timing light to read how much advance I'm getting. When the dial back timing light was set at 32 and I revved up the motor I got an additional 10 or 12 on the balancer. That's what I came up with the 44 number
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 09:18 AM   #10
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Can you switch off the dialback and just go into old school mode or is that not possible with your light? I've never used one, so I have no idea. I just have an el cheapo standard light and every one of these IH motors I've shined it on from 152 4-poppers up to 392 sv8 has shown me predictable readings on the engine mounted index, well below 25 degs at idle. When revved up, mechanical advance will take it of the scale, somewhere into the low 30's. That's pretty much all in for advance on these engines. I think your fancy doodad might be playing some tricks on you. Go old school on it if you can, just for shits an howdees and prove me wrong if you can.
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 11:18 AM   #11
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Thanks for the help. Regular basic timing light with no advance. In gear. No vac hooked up. 16 initial and it's pulling 17 inches of vac on guage. Very smooth. Anything lower than this initial and it runs like shit under load. Severe hesitation and blogging about 30% into the throttle. After that goes away (bogging and hesitation) it revs up fine if I add more timing it won't start. If I take away it runs worse and worse depending on how much initial I pull out
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 11:30 AM   #12
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

Ok. That's more like it. I think we might be getting somewhere, although it May not seem that way to you. 16 initial is about where I was guessing it would be (15 - 20). Its not unheard of for folks to have as much as 15 degrees of initial advance work well on these engines, although 10-12 seems to be more common. Is the choke functional on this carb? What effect does it have if you apply it while the engine is idling hot? I know you had it professionally rebuilt, but you'd be far from the first person I've heard of to find that their supposedly professional job as in fact botched in one or more critical ways. I'm not saying lets jump to that conclusion just yet, but given your symptoms, we simply cannot rule out the possibility that you're having some kind of fuel delivery issue that is being masked somewhat by advancing the the timing.
Has this engine and carb combination, or any other carb that you've ever had on it ran well enough to be driveable at any point in your ownership history?
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 12:18 PM   #13
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

I really appreciate all your time and help. I bought the car about five months ago with this carburetor. It was not drivable at the time because it did not have breaks but I heard it run and thought it was fine. Runs like a top when not under load at pretty much any timing setting. Far as the choke goes I don't think it's on. There's a rod coming from the intake manifold that goes up to the flapper on top of the carburetor. Everything is adjusted and seems to work fine. Once the car is warmed up that flapper is most of the way open in the vehicle idles down as it should.
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 12:41 PM   #14
Jeffsarasota
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Member Number: 8450
Posts: 40
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

I was also thinking it could b a lean carb issue.
Jeffsarasota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2017, 01:17 PM   #15
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,057
Default Re: HOLLEY DISTRIBUTOR HELP?😬😬

You bet. Thanks for the backstory. You never can tell what seemingly insignificant tidbit could turn out to be the key that solves the riddle. What I'm wanting you to try is a manual application of the choke while the engine is idling and also while you give it some throttle. Might need to wedge something or wire it to keep it partially closed. What should happen is some rough and stumble possibly accompanied by some black smoke and Rich exhaust smell that will clear up with the choke back off. If you instead find that it has little to no effect or even seems to make the engine run better under a load, that will be instructive. I don't care much for that 2210 model, but I'll try to keep my personal bias at bay a little longer.
Another question. Are you running some electric fuel pump, or the stock mechanical?
__________________
Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:31 PM.