IH PARTS AMERICA
Click Here!

Go Back   IH PARTS AMERICA > Tech Forums > Basic Tech Questions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Photo Gallery IH Store Home

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-10-2019, 07:43 AM   #61
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Thumbs up Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutboy74 View Post
Maybe clean the corrosion off better and see if that helps?
Yep, doing that now.
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2019, 03:16 PM   #62
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

ok, so finally got some time to fiddle around with this thing again. I cleaned the dist cap terminals inside and out and the rotor surfaces with a scotch brite pad and am getting the same result as before. Great spark off the coil (thin and orange/white-ish in color but jumps 1/4 inch), and intermittent or no spark at some of the spark plug leads. I did not test all the leads but 2 out of the 4 I tested were not sparking at all in 3 rotations of the crank, the other two sparked but I don't think it was every rotation of the crank because the sparks did not seem evenly spaced time-wise if I cranked for 5-7 seconds. Engine still firing on a number of cylinders like it wants to run. This is with new plug leads also.

Is there anything it could be now besides the cap and/or rotor?
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2019, 04:49 PM   #63
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,227
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Cap, rotor, points and condenser. Beyond that, a distributor that is too sloppy , too much end pay to hold consistent time. The remedy for that is rebuild or replace.
__________________
Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVW/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/33g Fuel
Lemuel - '73 1210 Reg Cab 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/4.09 FA25 & 4.10 RA16/6800# GVW - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Organ Donor - '72 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - seized 392/TF727/7500# GVW - "Use my body to keep you alive!"
Mongo - '71 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/4.10 RA17/6100# GVW - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2019, 04:50 PM   #64
1975IH200
Senior Member
 
1975IH200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Member Number: 731
Location: 3rd to last cave on the right
Posts: 596
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Your post from yesterday stated: "I cannot get a good reading on the rotor resistance, keeps jumping between 1500-17000 and everything in between."

Have you been able to test the rotor and get a consistent 5,000 ohm resistance?
If not, replace it with a new rotor.
__________________

My Junk --> 1975 "200HD" AWD Truck
My Cave location --> Western North Carolina
1975IH200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 07:58 AM   #65
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

I ordered new cap and rotor yesterday and should have them by Tuesday.

Is there any value in putting the old points and condenser back in? The old points are worn down to nubs.

Here is a short video showing play in the dist. Does this seem normal? https://photos.app.goo.gl/p1TgcqfVTphdejV88

Last question, the strength and consistency of my spark at the coil and spark plug leads is completely independent of timing right? Meaning timing does not have to be set exactly right to still get strong and consistent spark at the end of the wires?

Thanks all, again!
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 08:49 AM   #66
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,227
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

No reason to put worn out points back in. There's probably a way to test the condenser for pass/fail. Scott or Robert might know offhand. I'd have to research it...or you could. The shaft end play that I was discussing is measured with the distributor out of the engine. That is lateral or up/down travel, not rotational.
Yes, the spark strength is related entirely to your stored battery voltage, the condition of all associated wiring, junctions and terminations between the battery and the coil, and the condition/continuity of the primary and secondary windings inside the coil.
Let's have you run some tests with your multi-meter. First, do this when your ambient temp is around 70 degrees. Disconnect all wires from the coil. Switch your meter to read resistance in ohms on lowest scale. Touch the probes together to see what your meter calibration is like. A '.0' reading is ideal, but if you see .2 or .3, that's not unusual. Just remember what that number is. Then probe across your coil polarity terminals. Color to terminal polarity doesn't matter for this test, although it is good practice from a habit standpoint to place red on POS and black on NEG. What reading do you get? Now subtract your calibration figure from that reading. What is the adjusted number? I know what it should be, but I want you to tell me what you get.
Next, switch your meter to be in the thousands of ohms scale. No need to worry about the calibration figure now. That was only for the very low primary reading. The secondary reading is going to be much higher. With one probe on either of the polarity terminals, insert the other probe into the center high tension terminal. What reading do you get?
__________________
Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVW/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/33g Fuel
Lemuel - '73 1210 Reg Cab 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/4.09 FA25 & 4.10 RA16/6800# GVW - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Organ Donor - '72 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - seized 392/TF727/7500# GVW - "Use my body to keep you alive!"
Mongo - '71 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/4.10 RA17/6100# GVW - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 11:44 AM   #67
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutboy74 View Post
No reason to put worn out points back in. There's probably a way to test the condenser for pass/fail. Scott or Robert might know offhand. I'd have to research it...or you could. The shaft end play that I was discussing is measured with the distributor out of the engine. That is lateral or up/down travel, not rotational.
Yes, the spark strength is related entirely to your stored battery voltage, the condition of all associated wiring, junctions and terminations between the battery and the coil, and the condition/continuity of the primary and secondary windings inside the coil.
Let's have you run some tests with your multi-meter. First, do this when your ambient temp is around 70 degrees. Disconnect all wires from the coil. Switch your meter to read resistance in ohms on lowest scale. Touch the probes together to see what your meter calibration is like. A '.0' reading is ideal, but if you see .2 or .3, that's not unusual. Just remember what that number is. Then probe across your coil polarity terminals. Color to terminal polarity doesn't matter for this test, although it is good practice from a habit standpoint to place red on POS and black on NEG. What reading do you get? Now subtract your calibration figure from that reading. What is the adjusted number? I know what it should be, but I want you to tell me what you get.
Next, switch your meter to be in the thousands of ohms scale. No need to worry about the calibration figure now. That was only for the very low primary reading. The secondary reading is going to be much higher. With one probe on either of the polarity terminals, insert the other probe into the center high tension terminal. What reading do you get?
I have three coils, here are the readings:

Ohm reading with probes together on lowest setting (200): 1.5
Coil 1: 1.5 adjusted and 8.1 secondary (set on 20K)
Coil 2: 1.6 adjusted and 11.4 secondary (set on 20K)
Coil 3: 1.3 adjusted and 8.1 secondary (set on 20K)
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 12:26 PM   #68
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,227
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Good job! Primary on #3 is a tad on the low side, but the others are perfect on the primary. The secondary resistance seems to be within the acceptable range on all three.
Have you noticed any difference in spark strength/color with a different coil in place? I know you have a spark jumping an air gap, which is good, but a bluish color is more normally associated with a strong spark than a yellow/orange color.
You've sure got a problem child on your hands! These things usually behave themselves a bit better than yours has so far.
__________________
Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVW/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/33g Fuel
Lemuel - '73 1210 Reg Cab 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/4.09 FA25 & 4.10 RA16/6800# GVW - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Organ Donor - '72 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - seized 392/TF727/7500# GVW - "Use my body to keep you alive!"
Mongo - '71 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/4.10 RA17/6100# GVW - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 12:39 PM   #69
1975IH200
Senior Member
 
1975IH200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Member Number: 731
Location: 3rd to last cave on the right
Posts: 596
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

To use an ohm-meter, you touch the probes together, then adjust the meter with a small dial on the meter until the reading is 0.0.

Next, to test a coil, all wires must be disconnected from the coil, ie: all primary wiring and the secondary wire.

Then test per the attached IH manual section. CTS-2013-K.

Buy new points and condenser.
Always opt for the highest quality tune-up parts available.
Before installation of points & condenser:
Clean the points contacts with a Q-Tip with Isopropyl Alcohol on it to remove any protective coating the manufacturer may have applied to the contacts to inhibit surface corrosion during shipping and storage times.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Ignition Coil Testing .pdf (262.0 KB, 10 views)
__________________

My Junk --> 1975 "200HD" AWD Truck
My Cave location --> Western North Carolina
1975IH200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 01:20 PM   #70
Scoutboy74
Moderator
 
Scoutboy74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Member Number: 453
Location: Daze Crick, Jefferson
Posts: 4,227
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

I should have mentioned that some meters have a means of calibration adjustment if the probe to probe shows anything other than zero, but low cost models don't always have this feature, so you subtract for it in that case. But, you reported that your meter was at zero, so I felt as though your readings we're accurate.
__________________
Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVW/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/33g Fuel
Lemuel - '73 1210 Reg Cab 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/4.09 FA25 & 4.10 RA16/6800# GVW - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Organ Donor - '72 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - seized 392/TF727/7500# GVW - "Use my body to keep you alive!"
Mongo - '71 1210 Reg Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/4.10 RA17/6100# GVW - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
Scoutboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 01:29 PM   #71
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,417
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

I have had bad experiences with the crappy Chinese condensers. In my own engines and on others that I have helped with. It is so bad that now I only buy NOS Standard (other American made) condensors and have had 100% passing of new ones.
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 03:34 PM   #72
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutboy74 View Post
Good job! Primary on #3 is a tad on the low side, but the others are perfect on the primary. The secondary resistance seems to be within the acceptable range on all three.
Have you noticed any difference in spark strength/color with a different coil in place? I know you have a spark jumping an air gap, which is good, but a bluish color is more normally associated with a strong spark than a yellow/orange color.
You've sure got a problem child on your hands! These things usually behave themselves a bit better than yours has so far.
I have not compared the color of the sparks for each coil but have tried to start the motor with two of them without success.
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 03:45 PM   #73
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutboy74 View Post
I should have mentioned that some meters have a means of calibration adjustment if the probe to probe shows anything other than zero, but low cost models don't always have this feature, so you subtract for it in that case. But, you reported that your meter was at zero, so I felt as though your readings we're accurate.
To clarify, my multi-meter is a cheapo and not adjustable. When I set it to 200 ohms setting and touch the probes I get 1.5, not zero. Does that change your thoughts on the health of my coils?
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 03:49 PM   #74
Kala1984
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Member Number: 9252
Posts: 42
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Kenney View Post
I have had bad experiences with the crappy Chinese condensers. In my own engines and on others that I have helped with. It is so bad that now I only buy NOS Standard (other American made) condensors and have had 100% passing of new ones.
Do you think a bad condenser would cause the kind of issues I am having? Good spark at the coil lead and non/intermittent at the plug leads? Seems like something is not translating between the coil lead and the plug leads
Kala1984 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 04:06 PM   #75
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,417
Default Re: completely stumped Scout II 304

Just putting it out there.
To me it sounds like the cap is carbon tracked. Hard to pick threw the possible causes without standing in front of it. I really don't think it is a major issue but pinning it down is.
I think you wrote that you had and cap on the way.

Some one can correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the Presto and Holley caps that will install but be wrong with respect to plug wire phasing or indexing? like the tower is not correctly lined up with the rotor when the points break? Yes, I should know.
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:23 AM.