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Old 11-19-2008, 08:53 PM   #91
ccg1004
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

I live in oklahoma so most of the time it is hot, but it does get cold on some days. I do not have access to a vacuum gauge, can I rent one somewhere?
In regards to micheal. I am not sure if my ignition system is up to snuff. The wiring is all new, my starter could be going bad or my solenoid because of another issue I'm facing which is that when the truck is hot and will shift fine in and out of gear,but then the truck then will not start untill it cools off.
I am not sure of my choke adjustment so I will need to check that. From that diagram of the vacuum system I can tell somethings are missing so I will check on that tomorrow if I get the chance.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Update. I decided to plug all of my vacuum lines excpet for the one to the choke, and the one to the distributor. Not sure if this is ok or not, but I think they are only used for emissions.
When I had it idleing if I punched the gas really fast while in neutral it would die same as when I put it in gear.
Got out started fiddling with the choke while it idled and then got out and tested putting it in gear and it worked fine shifting. Not sure that I did anything, but now makes me believe it is a choke adjustment issue. Any good places to help with choke adjustment?
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:42 PM   #93
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccg1004 View Post
I live in oklahoma so most of the time it is hot, but it does get cold on some days. I do not have access to a vacuum gauge, can I rent one somewhere?
In regards to micheal. I am not sure if my ignition system is up to snuff. The wiring is all new, my starter could be going bad or my solenoid because of another issue I'm facing which is that when the truck is hot and will shift fine in and out of gear,but then the truck then will not start untill it cools off.
I am not sure of my choke adjustment so I will need to check that. From that diagram of the vacuum system I can tell somethings are missing so I will check on that tomorrow if I get the chance.
Ambient temperature has nothing to do with proper carburetion regarding cold start or hot restart. A proper choke operation is imperative for drivability, not just for the "emissions" thang.

It's not imperative that you have a vacuum gauge for adjusting a carb, but it does make it much easier to diagnose leaks. A servicable shop-type vacuum gauge can be found at any auto parts for around $15. If ya don't know what your actual manifold vacuum is, then ya don't know if ya gotta leak (and no doubt you will find several leak points) as you describe the rig is infected with the po (previous owner) virus.

If you will post some nice, well-focused pics of all four sides of your carb installed on the engine, I can take a look and advise. I need to see detail in order to see what ya have now and if it's anywhere close to being correctly connected/installed.

Otherwise, it's a crapshoot as to what ya have...and what ya need.

If the ignition system is not in first class condition with ignition timing verified, then you are wasting time chasing carburetor-related issues.
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Last edited by Michael Mayben; 11-20-2008 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:45 PM   #94
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

I seems to be working semi right now. It will shift into gear when it is cold. But now when it is in gear it misses so I figure it is timing. Any suggestions on a timing light? And is that the best way to time it?

Last edited by ccg1004; 11-21-2008 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 11-22-2008, 08:36 AM   #95
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

For a timing light, I would go to a sears store. I have not looked at timing lights in a long time. There are probably some pretty fancy ones on the market now.

Sv8 engines are timed on cylinder #8 (closest to firewall / pass side) as opposed to cylinder #1 on most engines.

For your current purpose - trying to get it to run / idle well - I would set it at the stock timing to start.

You need to check your manual. My t/a is timed at 0 / tdc, but I think the initial timing on scouts May be different.

Actually, before checking the timing, you should check the "point gap" on the points in the distributor (assuming it is a "points" distributor). Another tool at sears -- a dwell meter -- or you can do it the "old-fashioned" way with a feeler gauge.

Also, you should check the condition of the points / rotor, it May be time to put new points / rotor in; maybe even a new distributor cap.

You need to loosen the distributor -- bolt below the distributor housing with a "hold-down" bracket.

First check the timing (before "moving" the distributor). "find" the timing Mark on the pulley versus the "marked" timing numbers on the "block".

You do not move the distributor very much -- 1/4".

Move the distributor a little bit and see how the "Mark" has changed position. Then, rotate the distributor in the correct direction to "set" the "notch" on the pulley next to the desired value.

Timing slightly afffects idle speed, if your idle speed is real low -- below 500 rpm, I would adjust the idle speed up to 600 rpm. Once the timing is set correctly, then you can reset the idle speed to the correct rpm (600 - 700 rpm, I think).

Hth

Last edited by RobertC; 11-22-2008 at 08:47 AM..
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:22 AM   #96
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

I replaced the rotor and points a little while ago. My point gap could be off because I used a feeler guage. I ordered a simple timing light and a dwell meter so when that gets here I'll be able to check everything better then my eyes and ears. Thank you for all your help so far because I have learned quite a bit. I'll let you know on the progress later next week.
-chris
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:00 AM   #97
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Regarding the ignition system checkout chris, we need more info as to "which" ignition system you are dealing with! There are many possibilities and since the po virus infected this rig, there is no telling what system you are dealing with!

And just because the parts lists say a certain system was used, means nothing at this point in time, very few of these rigs are still "original". And the IH service manuals are full of mistakes, omissions, and discrepancies in this regard also. That information is more than 30 years old and the print versions were never actually "updated", that was done for the dealership by issuing replacement loose-leaf pages and "bulletins". Sometimes ....some of us have access to "some" of that info simply because we collect this kinda stuff, but there is no way to obtain a full set of "updates" unless the folks that control the publication of that data decide to make it available for sale.

My suggestion at this point is to review all the threads in the ignition forum here, you will learn how to identify what ya have, and how to diagnose/service also! And that forum is updated just as often as the others! In fact, I'll be throwing some new stuff up there today once I get all the pics lined out.

You will see that many folks "thought" they had carb issues, when in actuality the root problem was ignition-related. Thus making certain the ignition system is up to speed is imperative before touching the fuel system!

"base" ignition timing for a well-performing 304/345 running "regular" grade fuel will be between 6 and 10 degrees btdc at idle if the distributor is in good shape, some can tolerate as much as 12 degrees advance in base timing. That holds true for either a breaker point system or an electronic trigger system. That is not a "specification" from a service reference. "specs" were for verifying that the rig would meet "emissions" numbers when properly serviced, but do not necessarily mean that drivability was satisfactory! This is a very complicated issue for folks not trained in this type stuff.

A 392 motor can normally tolerate only 5>6 degrees of base timing on regular fuel.
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Last edited by Michael Mayben; 11-23-2008 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:20 AM   #98
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Hello all, where is a good place to start getting my 2210? Adjusted. I have just recently redone it but it was just my second carb rebuild and I didn't mess with much, just soaked and made sure everything moved nice and the float was replaced. I had removed the carb years ago because the float was not working correctly. I read this post as rebuilding so I am pretty confident I used the correct gasket and I am pretty close. It does start and run good, it just wants to stall on take off and idles higher when warm. I have replaced most of the vacuum lines. I think I am running it quite lean. I don't know where I started with the mix adjustment screws but then I turned them in until it was kinda starting to miss, then back out a half or so. I think.
Thanks

Last edited by GK_Slick; 12-04-2008 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:13 PM   #99
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Here is the "method" I have used in the past - by "ear".

Michael probably has a better / more scientific method.

With the engine off, slowly and lightly turn the idle mixture screws until they "bottom out". Then, turn both screws out 2 turns - some use 1 1/2 turns out.

Start the engine and let it warm up -- the idle speed should not be "high". If your vehicle will idle at 600 rpm (or even 500 rpm) -- that would be good.

Turn the screws in 1/2 turn and let engine adjust.

Then, turn the screws out 1/4 turn (or 1/8 turn) at a time -- letting the engine adjust / "catch up" for 10 - 15 seconds.

The rpm should increase very slightly with each "adjustment".

Repeat until the rpm decreases slightly.

The idle mixture adjustment screws should be set "just before" the "rpm drop".

Unfortunately, I think my "ear" is not good enough to do this anymore.

Fyi -- about the "miss". You should be able to turn the idle mixture adjustments screws in until the engine "dies".

Hth
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:25 PM   #100
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Thanks Robert. If I remember correctly that is about what I did but I May have not done it correctly. I think I forgot to turn it out till just before idle decrease. I will do that. It idles good and slow while warming and at warm, but while driving around the city is when the idle wants to speed up. Maybe heat/vaporization issue. I am thinking the lean mixture May be vaporizing to much causing the faster idle. Thank you
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:39 PM   #101
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

I really cannot think of anything really constructive for the "idle speed up" driving around town except

choke adjustment?

Throttle return spring(s) not strong enough / attached correctly?

Throttle cable worn / catching?

Carpet / mats interfering with the accelerator pedal?

Hopefully, michael can come up with something more constructive.
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:07 PM   #102
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Thanks, I will get back soon.
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:07 PM   #103
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Robert's idle mixture methodology works for me! Nice description dude!

The oem methodology used on an "emissions" setup back when the rig was younger is quite a bit more involved and in some cases we had to use a method referred to as "propane enrichment". That was an emissions "tuning" requirement in many cases and also involved removing the idle mixture lmiter caps (destroying in the process), and then replacing the caps with new ones once the motor was dialed in.

However, ya really need to set up a shop-type vacuum gauge on the motor so ya can see what's going on when the idle "speed" becomes erratic. That is a sure sign of a vacuum leak. And the first place I'd suspect is the "hic" valve (hot idle compensation) on the carb main body if it's equipped with that device. I you would post some good pics of your carb from all four sides, I can tell "which" version ya have, and maybe I can see something to try.

Also...if you are still using the egr system and it is connected properly (vacuum hookup), then it's possible that egr is activating at the wrong time once the engine reaches temp or the egr valve is hanging up (open) when it should be closed. That results inna vacuum leak, though it also usually is accompanied more by a very rough idle rather than an "increased" idle speed.

Again, having a vacuum gauge rigged for observation when an issue is present is a major clue towards what is going on.

If any throttle actuation issue May be suspected as Robert pointed out, simply disconnect the throttle cable and move aside. Then set up the carb. Re-connect the throttle after it plays nicely and then you will know how and where to deal with any throttle "actuation" issue.

When using the vacuum gauge, ya must maintain idle speed within the recommended range of 550>700rpm. If the rpm is too high or too low, then the vacuum reading is not accurate and will fool us! And the choke must be fully open when doing vacuum analysis.
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Old 12-04-2008, 03:48 PM   #104
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Which vacuum line would be ideal to "t" a gauge into or is there a better location? I will get those pics up soon.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:39 PM   #105
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Sorry gk, I shoulda pointed that out months ago!

Looking at the rear of your throttle body you see three ports/nipples. Do not tee your vacuum gauge off the center port which exits straight back. On some 22xx carbs, that port "might" be manifold vacuum, but on most it's a "ported" or timed vacuum port.

Use either the 3/16" (small) port or the larger 3/8" port, the ones that exit the carb throttle body atta 45 degree angle toward the passenger side. The 3/16" port is connected to the shoke pulloff, so that is manifold vacuum. If your pulloff is "retracted" while the engine is running and stays retraced while running, then the pulloff is ok. When ya kill the motor, the pulloff should extend since manifold vacuum disappears.

On this carb series, the ported or timed vacuum point will display approximately 0"hg>5"hg at curb idle speed if all is well and adjusted correctly. So readings in that range are a dead giveaway ya are not connected to manifold vacuum.

We're looking at a minimum of say 16"hg at curb idle, best case is to get that up around 20"hg depending upon your base elevation. That would be a good reading for sea level>1800ft. Or so.

"assuming" that the compression is normal, and ring seal is normal, and there are no vacuum leaks, the things we're looking at right now regarding fine tuning are ignition timing, idle speed, and idle mixture, the vacuum numbers are only good as long as the engine is fully warm, the choke is pulled completely open, and idle speed is within range.
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