No Oil in the Driverside Head

[Michael Mayben]

Additional insight into the "oiling" issue May be found in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...r-rockers.html

Including pics of the cam journals and other components.

And here is another thread that had a happy ending but a bogus diagnosis as to the "o" ring!:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ight-ones.html

And another one:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ley-plugs.html

And another:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...in-issues.html

Yet another:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ker-issue.html

And another:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...pit-holes.html

[77SSII]

Thanks for all the input guys!
Ok, so with all this info, is it a forgone conclusion that something is wrong and I will have to break down the engine.
I ran the motor for 5 minutes @1800 rpm w/no oil coming up into the driver rocker assy.
If I have a double sump pan w/a little less than 5 quarts, can that really be the problem? A previous response said that the low oil level wouldn't be a problem because I have oil on the pass. Side rocker assy.
All the priming in the world and rotation of the cam shouldn't get oil up in the driver head, right?
Spinning the pump w/an 1800 rpm drill gives me 50 lbs at the block where the sending unit goes. Is that pressure within reason or could a blockage cause that pressure value?
So the question still remains, to break the motor down or not??? I can try to prime the motor again w/about 7 quarts and rotate the crank in very small increments w/a drill spinning the pump.
Thanks.

[Michael Mayben]

If you ran the rig and had oil on one side but not the other...then there is an issue with oil feed on the #2 cam bearing/cam journal. Continuing to roll the motor over to allow oil feed to the driver side is useless at this point if it won't feed with the motor running!

50 psi oil pressure cold is wonderful, that is not the problem. Neither is oil level in the pan.

The lube system here is very simple! And it's easy to understand and follow it out!

What I would do at this point is pull the engine and put it onna stand. Do not drain the oil or remove the filter. Remove the plugs but keep 'em in the holes loosely so ya can roll the crank over easily

remove the crank hub/balancer and timing cover carefully and ya May be able to re-use the timing cover gasket and pan gasket as is.

Do not remove the heads or intake/carb. Remove both rocker shaft assemblies, all pushrods, and lifters, keeping the pushrods and lifters in correct order as removed. The lifters will come up right through the pushrod holes using either a magnet or a lifter puller.

Do not remove the cam gear, go through the window in the cam gear and remove the flathead retaining screws from the thrust plate. Then carefully pull the cam out of the block and set aside.

Inspect all oil holes in the cam journals, tracing the paths completely to insure there is no debris blocking any hole.

Then run the oil pump with the drill motor while looking through the lifter galleries for oil coming from all sixteen oil holes. At the same time, look for oil emerging from the #2 cam bearing oil hole. If no oil from that point, then the blockage is between the main oil gallery feed and the cam bearing saddle. If there is oil at that point, then the blockage is between the cam bearing and the spit hole through the block and head.

And of course, inspect the cam bearing and holes in the block for correct alignment. All this May have to be done using a flashlight with a flex head and an inspection mirror.

[Robert Kenney]

Originally Posted by michael mayben

Then run the oil pump with the drill motor while looking through the lifter galleries for oil coming from all sixteen oil holes. At the same time, look for oil emerging from the #2 cam bearing oil hole. If no oil from that point, then the blockage is between the main oil gallery feed and the cam bearing saddle. If there is oil at that point, then the blockage is between the cam bearing and the spit hole through the block and head.

I'm sure this was just a typo but
no oil will go to the lifter galleries with out the cam installed..

Verify the oil flow to the #2 cam bearing then slip the cam back in and verify the lifters are getting oil. You will probably need to hold the cam in because the oil pressure behind the rear of the cam will try to push the cam forward and out of the bearing shells.

[Michael Mayben]

Originally Posted by Robert kenney

I'm sure this was just a typo but
no oil will go to the lifter galleries with out the cam installed..

Verify the oil flow to the #2 cam bearing then slip the cam back in and verify the lifters are getting oil. You will probably need to hold the cam in because the oil pressure behind the rear of the cam will try to push the cam forward and out of the bearing shells.

Yep Robert...I left out some points, good catch!

My thought process was to rip it down and do a visual, then go back with the cam inna temporary mode! I just didn't finish that thought!

One screw into the thrust plate finger tight will hold the cam back.

[77SSII]

So...I gave up.
Pulled the motor yesterday and took it back where it was redone. The guy who does the work helped me unload it and said that he primes the pump w/every build. He checks both both heads and checks the pressure. They did charge me for 7 qts back in 2000. I asked to be called before they dig in so I can see for myself what all you guys have probably seen countless times. Maybe I did rotate the cam bearing when I turned it over by hand a few years ago?????
Well, I'll let you know. You guys are awesome and if not for you, I'd have torched it by now and bought a Chevy!
until the next problem...

[77SSII]

Hope everyone had a nice long weekend.
Got a call from the machine shop last Thursday and it was a "spun" #2 cam bearing. Rotated just enough to completely cover the hole.
The motor did sit for 9 years and I did turn it over once several years ago w/some m.m. Oil into the cylinders and I probably did it then. Before I did anything this time I did read "bringing old iron back to life".
Not sure how much they're gonna charge me yet but I'm bent over pretty good here I think.
Next question; I'm might be able to run this thing for maybe 300-500 miles before winter. Will that be enough to open up any clearances btwn shafts & bearings to keep this from happening in the spring? Should I just start the thing every month or so to keep everything oiled & the lifters full?

[Robert Kenney]

Sounds like the bearing was installed clocked so the oil hole was blocked from the git go. In my opinion if the bearing is pressed in it will stay and if it encountered enough friction to turn in the block it would be completely toast. Not likely that it would only slip a few degrees then stop slipping. Ask for the bearing they replaced and if they reinstall the bearing, I suspect it never spun.

Either way a stay over the winter will not be a problem once the engine is oiled and run a few miles.

Glad to hear the problem was found.

[Michael Mayben]

Robert's comments are the same as mine, this was a botched cam bearing install from the beginning.

Unless the block's #2 cam bearing bore is way oversize, a new cam bearing will not spin...spun cam bearings are caused by complete lack of oil delivery to the entire cam bearing run...or blocked oil delivery to an individual cam bearing saddle.

A "spun" cam bearing and a deteriorated/delaminated cam bearing are two different animals. Two different root causes.

The machine shop doing the work now needs to verify the #2 cam bearing saddle id in order to determine if it will hold a replacement bearing. If the id is ok, then the bearing did not spin...and if the bearing had spun due to a lubrication issue, the cam journal would be botched as well. An experienced engine assembly dude will know when knocking in a cam bearing that it's "loose"...and the saddle should have been checked for size before doing any other work on the block, just like checking bore dimensions. Why do machine work on a block that has a cam bearing saddle that is out of spec???

When these motors "dry start" after sitting non-rotated, it wipes out the top layer of bearing material (in some cases it's a babbitt-type layer) due to "stiction", as I explained in that document I wrote. No way in hell it will break loose a properly installed cam bearing...if that was the case, the bearing would have been adhered to the cam journal making it very difficult to remove the cam without first removing the stuck bearing with the cam inside the block!

If the cam bearing saddle is oversize, then all the saddles need to be checked...and in most cases, the block could have the saddles properly "re-sized" (oversize) and cam bearings with an appropriate oversize shell can be installed. This is specialty engine/machine shop type parts and service that not all machine shops are willing to take on...they just tell the customer that the block is toast which is pure bs.

Any engine that is allowed to sit for a prolonged period non-rotated could develop the "stiction" issue! But...the IH I-4 and sv motors are worse in this regard due to the overall design of the lubrication system. And with today's shit-quality gasoline, fuel system deterioration is just as difficult a situation to contend with.

This is not to say there is anything "wrong" with the IH lubrication system...it's just "different" as compared to other manufacturer's products and needs to be treated properly during the entire engine build process.

Just start and run the motor on a regular basis, allowing it to fully escalate to operational temperature, that means at least 30 minutes to stabilize. And treat the fuel with stabil marine formula fuel conditioner to help offset the debilitating effects of the alcohol/gasoline blend.

[Jereman]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayben

Let's start at the beginning and follow the directions in the write up we posted!

And do both rocker assemblies not lube or just one side? #2 cam bearing feeds the driver side, #4 cam bearing feeds the passenger side. If neither side oils, then the cam bearings are most likely not installed correctly...a very common occurrence when done by machine shops that are not familiar with these engines and their nuances.

Assembly lube can't "harden".

Trying to find the sweet spot in the cam rotation where the rocker shaft can feed is extremely tedious. You must remove the spark plugs to allow easy rotation of the crank with a wrench in tiny increments.

Your "engine builder" sounds like someone I'd run away from in a hurry or has no prior experience in dealing with these engines and verifying proper engine lubrication. 5 minutes with no lube to the cam bearings/marginal oil to the lifters, and no oil to a rocker assembly is the same as an eternity on these engines, the cam bearing(s) will be wiped out immediately.

One more time, the lubrication scenario on these engines is totally unlike any comparable engine, you cannot compare the lube path/performance with any other "conventional" piece of detroit iron!

If you cannot get a heavy volume of oil discharge at the feed hole in each head while slowly rotating the crank and finding the sweet spot (it will not feed both sides simultaneously), then there is a definite oil delivery issue. Such as...a cam bearing not aligned properly with the oil holes in the block, or installed too "shallow", or too "deep" into the bearing saddle. Or...the actual oil feed hole in the cam journal is partially/fully obstructed. Or...there is an obstruction of some sort within the lubrication path in the block. This path is very simple and can be easily verified at the time the engine is assembled...in fact it must be verified (as should the entire lube path) during and after engine assembly and before firing off the motor! And that includes the main oil galleries and lifter feeds at each point.

These motors do not "oil" at the pushrod tips in any fashion, the pushrods tips are oiled by throwoff of oil from properly oiling engine.

The lifter gallery on each side will flood heavily at idle if the lube system is working. Ya can easily watch this through the pushrod holes while the engine is running if you have installed a cutaway valve cover. If it don't heavily flood, then the lifter galleries are not receiving full oil supply from the rear of the cam through the feed hole.

Ya simply must carefully rotate the crank and find the "spot" of cam alignment. And that "spot" on each journal is not equidistant, the oil hole is offset across the bearing journal of the cam. Oil delivery through the cam hole is a "timed" occurrence in a pulsating fashion...though at above idle rpm it appears to the eye (and the pressure gauge) as a solid/heavy pressurized stream.

Because the oil pressure sender port is right off the outlet side of the oil pump, the pressure at that point really means nothing as far as diagnosis for this situation. All the potential trouble spots are downstream of that location. As long as the pump will make sufficient pressure/flow to fill and maintain the lifter galleries (which also means the oil level is adequate!), and supply a feed to the cam spit holes, oil will emerge from the feed holes (one on each side) on the machined rocker stand boss on the head.

As for the reputation of the engine builder back when...that means nothing at this point! Review this thread for a similar scenario:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ler-392-a.html

That motor was also "built" by a reputable machine shop...the same one I have do work for me! But they also scruud up wayne's first rebuild, blamed the failure on the carb, then built him a second motor that also did not oil! And the first motor which they told wayne had "holed" a piston most likely has nothing wrong with it other than a botched assembly job!

hi am not get oil to the Passenger head. So I'm assuming it is the Carrier bearing number 4#. Is there a way of replacing the Carrier bearing without pulling the engine apart or and my pulling a motor and doing Carrier bearings

[Scoutboy74]

Cam shaft bearings. Carrier bearings are found either in axle differentials, or as center supports between two long drive shafts.
How do you know you're not getting oil to that bank? What's the history of this engine? Have you had the oil pan off lately?
If you suspect top end lubrication issues, you should drain your oil and drop your oil pan to see what might be lurking in there. The presence of grey sludge indicates cam bearing de-lamination. The presence of kibbles and bits that are non-magnetic represent chunks of one or more failed cam bearings. In either case, you wouldn't need to worry about one isolated cam bearing. They would all need attention. At that point the engine should come out for complete disassembly, inspection and determination of proper corrective action ranging from top end overhaul, to full blown rebuild.

[Jereman]

Originally Posted by Scoutboy74

Cam shaft bearings. Carrier bearings are found either in axle differentials, or as center supports between two long drive shafts.
How do you know you're not getting oil to that bank? What's the history of this engine? Have you had the oil pan off lately?
If you suspect top end lubrication issues, you should drain your oil and drop your oil pan to see what might be lurking in there. The presence of grey sludge indicates cam bearing de-lamination. The presence of kibbles and bits that are non-magnetic represent chunks of one or more failed cam bearings. In either case, you wouldn't need to worry about one isolated cam bearing. They would all need attention. At that point the engine should come out for complete disassembly, inspection and determination of proper corrective action ranging from top end overhaul, to full blown rebuild.

Yes i have the oil pan off and had to replace Both rocker arm assemblies When I put it back together I primed up using a drill No oil to the passenger side rocker arm assembling it had about 35PSI on engine warm At idle with new pressure oil pressure gauge(befor i replast rocker arms) On side note valve covers were dry on the inside so pretty sure that's why the rocker arms were tost . Motor was rebuilt and new heads I'm suspecting that they messed up on the number 4# Crank bearing

[Scoutboy74]

Did the builder offer any warranty? If it was a screw up on his end, he should have to make it right.

[Jereman]

Originally Posted by Scoutboy74

Did the builder offer any warranty? If it was a screw up on his end, he should have to make it right.

I wish Tray the transmission and transfer case out of a 72 International scout ll.

[Jereman]

Originally Posted by Jereman

I wish Tray the transmission and transfer case out of a 72 International scout ll.

Well the Cam bearings are well just say that they're kind of their looks like I'm pulling the motor and tearing it down again. Bet he dry started it