IH PARTS AMERICA
Click Here!

Go Back   IH PARTS AMERICA > Tech Forums > Gas Engine Tech
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Photo Gallery IH Store Home

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2008, 09:43 AM   #16
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 71
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

My original thoughts were to be able to offer offset keys (which May actually exist now once I do the research) that could be used to compensate for any production irregularities or to be able to "play" with cam timing/installation.

And I don't know if I mentioned this or not previously...dave sez it was "common knowledge" back in the day, that the crankshaft keyway on the I-4 and sv motors was cut up to 4 degrees off it's spec'd position when the cranks were machined. The motors that they rebuilt for fleet service in the "factory branches" were all checked upon reassembly and if needed, an offset key (sourced in bulk) was used. He's currently researching this for me as to the source of those items, his memory is sometimes as non-func as mine!

So I guess now all that's left is to verify rocker arm ratio for each type rocker Robert! Sounds like ya got all the cam data ya need now to go to the "next step"?
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 12:02 PM   #17
Tim Potter
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 41
Posts: 76
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert kenney View Post
tim,
in the context of your deal. Your cam is in it's intended location. All 3 sets including your set times exactly the same. Your cam was iirc ground straight up eg 110/110 and based on all timing set info we now have it is within 2 degrees of the card if not right on.

Yes always verify timing but in your case I would suspect cam timing allot less now and don't recommend tearing it down unless it is hurt.

Robert
Picture of my cam card.... For some reason I'm thinking it was ground 5* advanced.
If the position of my cam is not the culprit causing low vac and sluggish performance in this engine then I what am I to think?
Robert, I told you about the unsteady vacuum readings I am getting now (first time) and the "puffing" in the exhaust. I haven't yet determined the cause but, it's either flat lobes (apx 13k miles) bent pushrods or stuck valves. No additional valve train noise though???
Attached Images
 
Tim Potter is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 12:17 PM   #18
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 71
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

Can this "xxx-built" motor deal get any worse tim????

Time for another compression test, followed by a leakdown test. Do that with both valve covers removed so ya can see what's going on in the rocker assembly lubrication arena.

"stuck/sticking valves" = no/weak lubrication of the rocker assembly. Did the "xxx" bastards rework the rocker shafts/assemblies like they shoulda??

I'm involved in a very similar deal right here, hope to finish off this motor of wayne's this coming week:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...k-avenger.html

Thanks for posting the cam card, that really adds to the knowledge base here!
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 02:38 PM   #19
Tim Potter
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 41
Posts: 76
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
can this "xxx-built" motor deal get any worse tim????

Time for another compression test, followed by a leakdown test. Do that with both valve covers removed so ya can see what's going on in the rocker assembly lubrication arena.

"stuck/sticking valves" = no/weak lubrication of the rocker assembly. Did the "xxx" bastards rework the rocker shafts/assemblies like they shoulda??

I'm involved in a very similar deal right here, hope to finish off this motor of wayne's this coming week:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...k-avenger.html

Thanks for posting the cam card, that really adds to the knowledge base here!
Michael,
I believe that they did clean the rocker shafts because I "believe" I saw new welch plugs in the ends. The heads/valves/springs were relatively new(headwork done by xxx for previous motor) but they took them back and reworked them to make sure ther was no bearing material stuck anywhere in them or in the rockers; thats what I'm told.
There is something about this motor that is wrong. I don't know what. All I really know is that it doesn't run worth a damn. I'm about to yank the thing out and just give it to Robert. Maybe there is a chance I can find a runner 345 to throw in for a while until he/we can get to mine. I got 7k in this freekin' thing and I shouldn't be having these problems
Tim Potter is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 02:47 PM   #20
Robert Kenney
IHPA Tech Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Age: 49
Posts: 3,317
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
my original thoughts were to be able to offer offset keys (which May actually exist now once I do the research) that could be used to compensate for any production irregularities or to be able to "play" with cam timing/installation.

And I don't know if I mentioned this or not previously...dave sez it was "common knowledge" back in the day, that the crankshaft keyway on the I-4 and sv motors was cut up to 4 degrees off it's spec'd position when the cranks were machined. The motors that they rebuilt for fleet service in the "factory branches" were all checked upon reassembly and if needed, an offset key (sourced in bulk) was used. He's currently researching this for me as to the source of those items, his memory is sometimes as non-func as mine!

So I guess now all that's left is to verify rocker arm ratio for each type rocker Robert! Sounds like ya got all the cam data ya need now to go to the "next step"?
I am satisfied but you guys May want to run other tests. I would be happy to do it.

I am putting the rocker arm test fixture together this weekend.
Should be able to run it next weekend


the key should be 45 degrees from the #1 rod journal
cl. I didn't find a 4 * discrepancy on the test 4-banger. Seemed pretty much right on.

Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown

Last edited by Robert Kenney; 12-06-2008 at 03:36 PM..
Robert Kenney is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 02:52 PM   #21
Robert Kenney
IHPA Tech Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Age: 49
Posts: 3,317
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim potter View Post
michael,
I believe that they did clean the rocker shafts because I "believe" I saw new welch plugs in the ends. The heads/valves/springs were relatively new(headwork done by xxx for previous motor) but they took them back and reworked them to make sure ther was no bearing material stuck anywhere in them or in the rockers; thats what I'm told.
There is something about this motor that is wrong. I don't know what. All I really know is that it doesn't run worth a damn. I'm about to yank the thing out and just give it to Robert. Maybe there is a chance I can find a runner 345 to throw in for a while until he/we can get to mine. I got 7k in this freekin' thing and I shouldn't be having these problems

Shoot man why not a 383?

your cam is ground 3* advanced. A good thing but you are still unhappy with it so let's fix it.

Anytime...... After the usc/ucla game.
Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline  
Old 12-06-2008, 03:53 PM   #22
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 71
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

I agree tim, this motor is a worst case deal from the gitgo! But that doesn't help ya right now.

I'd not trust the rocker assembly whatsoever! I'd definitely disassemble and verify what "xxx" told ya! It's too simple not to check and verify.

So do you think the rocker shafts "might" have been purged from the original head build? Or after it was ripped into the second time? "cam bearing" material in the rockers is not hardly likely, the pieces would be way too big, tiny particles are not the failure mode of the babbitt material! But accumulated years of sludging is what gets 'em.

But again, ya gotta verify if a valve(s) are stuck/sticking while watching the motor run (and oil). If all of a sudden the vacuum has gone wackeee, then something is wrong and the trickledown is still taking place!

I'd not pull the heads or motor until ya watch the lube system! Otherwise you will never be able to get to root cause of this poor performance, all areas need to be diagnosed! And if "top end lubrication" does show to be faulty, then I see total reimbursement of this whole deal by "xxx". So video the oiling (or non-oiling) of the top end so your attorney can have sumthin' ta play with.

As the motor is now running...ya need to do and video the following:

1) oil pressure cold right off the first tap in the gallery.
2) oil pressure hot at the same point.
3) hot compression (just like when the motor is running).
4) hot leakdown.
5) rocker assembly lubrication including oil drool to the valve tips and the pushrods.
6) cam lobe condition as measured at the rocker with a dial indicator (nothing fancy, just looking for an abnormal lobe or three).
7) video of the vacuum gauge face while the motor is running and verifying that timing and carb idle mixture are ok and no potential vacuum leak noted; also include some notation of the altitude where this data is being recorded.

You already have the pics of the cam gear alignment, that's additional "proof" to use in documentation.
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline  
Old 08-26-2010, 05:26 PM   #23
Robert Kenney
IHPA Tech Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Age: 49
Posts: 3,317
Default Re: Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

This thread is intended to show where the availible sv timings sets install with respect to each other and not a place to post specific question regarding a specific engine build.

Lets move mp's posts to another thread. Mm can do it or I'll do it later.

Moved!
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:12 PM.