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Old 05-06-2009, 09:20 AM   #1
Michael Mayben
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Default The Lifter Thread

Based on the volume of email I receive regarding the "hydraulic lifter" subject as it relates to IH products, along with the topic being repeatedly addressed in this sub-forum, we'd like to use this thread for future discussion regarding the lifter subject.

And for some definitive background regarding the "lifter deal", review this thread from last fall:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ern-152-a.html

"engine builder" is a resource all should bookmark and visit on a regular basis. This recent article does an outstanding job of explaining "lifter rotation" and the engineering that goes into that area of engine design:

flat or tapered cams and flat or crowned lifters: engine builder

And...for the record...the new service part hydraulic lifters that are in inventory here at ihon are manufactured by johnson...however, they May be marketed under several different "brand names" and part numbers.

Also, the re-grind camshafts we're supplying for some ihc engine applications are correctly ground to provide oem-pattern lifter rotation.

In addition to lifter rotation, many oem ihc-produced engines also incorporated "exhaust valve rotators" located between the valve spring set and the valve spring seat surface on the cylinder head.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:43 PM   #2
agcatpilot
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

Hi Mike, I'm the new guy on the block here. I was listed as "fastedsel" over at fordification and would like to personally thank you for your advice to get the "hesitation" out of the acceleration on the big block Ford in my '59 edsel. It was in fact a vacuum leak due to a defective, rebuilt distributor. Changed the distributor and problem solved. I'm now known here as "agcatpilot" due to my past many years of crop dusting and we now have just completed a total restoration of a '64 IH 1100a. Viper red, dark metallic blue fenders, step side box. 345, 4 speed, it'll pull the lake out from underneath a boat! Thanks again, floyd
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:04 AM   #3
Robert Kenney
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

pictures please! We love pictures. :d
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:50 AM   #4
agcatpilot
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

Hi Mike, as kinda the new "60 year old kid" here I feel a little embarassed asking about 345 lifter noise when this entire subject has been adressed somewhere else. Anyway here goes, I installed this late 70's early 80's? 345 into my '64 project truck. Runs fine, smokes when freshly started, (typical IH), but has a definate clatter when warmed up. Am using 10/30 oil and overfull on the dipstick. I pulled off the valve covers and ran it. To my surprise, not all the pushrods were rotating and the main offending noise was coming from #5 intake rocker. also when I pulled out the sparkplugs, they were all light grey to white except the front two on the passenger side of the engine and they were totally black. New plugs, wires, dizzy innards. Of course this is most likely something separate like a wore out distributor. This morning the engine was cool and the #5 intake rocker had about .018 backlash, the rest were tight. Am I looking at installing new lifters? I can get them for about $26 ea.

I will pass along pictures of the truck when my son comes here to show me how. My total computer skills are about as useless as boobs on slab bacon so please be patient for now.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

Yep, got'er figured, this 345 is getting a new set of lifters. I pulled the exhaust lifter on #5 and it was flat on the bottom, and the intake lifter on #5 had a nasty dish shape on the bottom. I hope the cam is alright.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:50 PM   #6
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Got the new lifters in the 345 and it runs great! The noise is all gone, starts great and good oil pressure and flow. Am somewhat concerned that the pushrods don't rotate. Most will turn with light finger pressure but a couple are just plain tight. I'm thinking the cam might be getting weak, any thoughts anyone? The lift seems to be alright but maybe it also needs new pushrods. I will take it for a short drive as soon as it thaws out up here and maybe all the new stuff in there will get aquainted with the things it has to work with.
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:05 AM   #7
Drew Merrick
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

I am just curious... When you changed out the lifters did you measure the push rods?

Michael was helping me once with reviving an sv. When we pulled the rods we found that not all were the exact same length, a shortcut to correct a lifter problem.
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

No, we did not measure the pushrods. But the one pushrod that is really tight is the same one that was making all the noise and the lifter had the dish shaped bottom. I'm thinking that the pushrod hammered against the rocker arm and that the fit is a near perfect circle and that has eliminated any room for movement of the rod if that makes any sense. I had that happen in a 0-540-b2b5 lycoming engine on one of our airplanes. My next choice, while I still have the covers off is to trade the rod with another one beside it. I re-installed the rods as they came out as is the thing to do. I have another complete set here out of a 304 so I May clean up one of them and try it out. I started the truck this am and it is real quiet and am well pleased with the new lifters but am still unsure of the real mileage of the 345 that I put in this '64. The po told me that he overhauled it with standard parts so when I got it back home I pulled off the oil pan, #3 rod-bearing cap and measured the bearing at .0015 so I was happy with that. right now we are weighing our options but for now we will let go for summer and cruise season. This fall I will pull it down and either have the cam re-ground or install a rv cam or maybe even the standard cam. I must confess I made a big mistake by not buying the lifters from this site and from napa. That mistake just cost me an extra $260! I promise Mike, it won't happen again!
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:48 AM   #9
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

So for right now, you are satisfied with the results!

When dealing with old junk like this, there is no way to know exactly what you have in the way of parts and what has been done.

Not having all pushrods/lifters rotating is not a big deal at all. If you had a camshaft that was perfectly ground with a "minus lift" on each lobe, then you would have the potential for rotation. On top of that many of these engines have installed only on the exhaust valve spring assemblies, an "exhaust valve rotator" that causes only the exhaust valves to minutely rotate with no action created by the cam lobes.

It is not common that an oem sv camshaft experiences wear on only one or two lobes. But we do know this is a common issue on the I-4 camshafts due to simple wear. So this is not an apples/apples deal at all, those are two uniquely different engine combos!

In nearly every case of a damaged cylinder system I deal with on the sv engines, I find one cylinder has experienced a "brown-out" and is continuously eating a lifter, rocker arm, and/or pushrod. That is because of a distinct lubrication failure that is normally simple to repair...rebuild the rocker assembly! We deal with this one issue constantly as more and more of these old engines are being brought to life.

So that said, there re many variations going on regarding valve rotation.

There are also several reasons why lifters should be replaced in sets and never swapped around in their bores. Doing this to identify a root cause is acceptable but not for an engine that will be in daily use.

The only time we use custom-cut pushrods is when a camshaft has been installed that has had it's base circle diameter reduced due to a grinding issue. Because we very rarely deal with cams that have been severely changed in grind on these engines, the oem pushrod simply "works as long as the actual valve installed height is within specification. This is not the case when dealing with the hundreds of camshaft variations used with chryfordrolets however!

The 304 pushrods will not work in a 196/345/392 engine as they will be too short. There is about 1/4" difference in the deck height between the 152/266/304 engines and the taller deck 196/345/392. Then we also have the issue of "welded" rocker arm pushrods and "boat" pushrods.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:20 PM   #10
agcatpilot
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Default Re: The Lifter Thread

Thanks michael for your reply. And you are right about the 304 pushrods, as soon as I sent the reply I then remembered the engines are different. I will keep the push rods where they are and button this engine up. This 345 in this '64 frame looks like a beast ready to jump out at you with just 1/4 inch clearance between the exhaust pipes and frame rails. It is wider and higher than the 304 for sure but a very nice power plant just the same. This engine is also equipped with the pvr's (positive valve rotators) on the exhaust valves. The clearances and wear on the rocker shafts is also minimal. I guess I'm so used to watching the rods rotate on our old Ford y blocks I thought these should do the same. Also your idea of oil use is important as well. A friend of mine has two 605 IH natural gas pumping units for irrigation. They had to go to a special low ash dispersant oil because of camshafts failing on them. The engines are governed to 2200 rpm which reaches the top of the pump curve and I think comes real close to the top torque curve of the 605's. Beautiful engines but I think harvester only built them a couple years.
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