IH PARTS AMERICA
Click Here!

Go Back   IH PARTS AMERICA > Tech Forums > Gas Engine Tech
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Photo Gallery IH Store Home

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-20-2008, 08:15 AM   #16
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 72
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Dave mentioned several chrysler-app rods also. Iirc, the problem was primarily that they were way too narrow on the big end, so side thrust was gonna be a problema to have to overcome.

That was his reasoning behind retaining the oem rods, while the ratio May not be optimum, it kept the entire engine project within the financial ballpark. All that would be entailed is fabbing and installing the small end bushings. Since the entire mass is gonna gitta balance job, that won't impact anything.
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #17
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Michael,
I understand dave's reasoning for the IH rods.

I don't like the IH rods for 4 reasons.
1) weight on the small and big end that needs to be removed.
2) they have been in service for 45 years.
3) the caps have no locating feature for alignment.
4) the beam to big end bearing housing transition is crappy. This controls the distribution of the compressive loads to the bearing bore and the tensile loads that pull the bearing bore out of round.

I plan of blowing or turbo charging this engine so I won't cut corners simply because an off the shelf part doesn't fit right in.

Before I build an engine I won't be happy with I will design my own parts. Yes it will cost more but in the long run it will be a better engine imho. Kinda why I thought it May end up as a build off rather than the same engine twice.

A lot cheaper(per rod or piston) to have 8 rods and pistons made than 4. Sooooo? I will cost this stuff out custom and see.

Rk
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown

Last edited by Robert Kenney; 11-20-2008 at 10:37 AM..
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #18
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 72
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

So let's attack this from both directions!

I'll do the "cheep" (cheeper) version that might be able to be more doable by a typical handydan in a home shop and farming out the machine work as needed. Since obamassiah is gonna gimme sum cash to do this, I need ta stretch all them bailout dineros as far as I can. But he'll only put reglar alkeegazz in my tanks, he won't spring for tha ethyl hightest schnizz.

Then folks can pick and choose from the various ideas and methodology as fits their budget?

But I need you and dave to do all this dam math shit...since the sun season is over with up here, my solar kalkalator ain't workin' too guud! Yawl tell me what ta do as long as it's cheep!
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 11:11 AM   #19
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Here is a setup that will cost close to what dave is proposing.

6.135 long bbc rods/ the piston in he suggested by dave
od a shorter cd with a longer stroke (3.831)

weld and grind the 196 crank offset and to the bbc rod width.
Similar price to welding and grinding for IH journal diameter and offset.

I find many options availible if we mix it up a bit.

Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 12:53 PM   #20
71 Scout 2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Member Number: 638
Posts: 25
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Interesting ideas guys.
Just a few suggestions and some questions (not always in that order).
If you're looking into stuffing an unaltered 196 crank into the 152 block and looking to do it on a budget maybe stick with stock 152 rods. I know you mentioned that you don't like the stock rods and for a couple reasons you listed I'm not crazy about the stock pieces on a performance app myself, but with a little prep they are a decent part.
I looked for a "off the shelf" replacement connecting rod several years ago and couldn't find one that was 100% match on the big-end. Like you mentioned the big-end is wider than most anything of the same journal diameter.
For pistons seeing the budget is small try silvolite 1266 pistons. You will have to bush the stock IH rods and narrow the small end. The bushing required slips my mind, but I have toyota written in my notes. Also depending on your block/head combo you May have to shave some off the pistons (a very small amount, don't worry, plenty of meat).
Balancing the v8 was interesting, I'm sure the i4 will be even more so.
And from my past experience, boost and small budget have never been know to mix well.
How much boost do you plan on running?
A good prepped set of stock rods will handle way more than the pistons I listed.
What rpm do you see this engine turning?
Again, pistons listed are maybe good for 5500rpms, boost dependant.
A little eye candy.
71 Scout 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 01:23 PM   #21
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Thanks for the info. I agree with the boost/budget correlation. I will most likely limit manifold to 10-12# above sea level if inter-cooled or 8 if not mainly due to the head bolt per cylinder of 4 and availible pump fuel.

The bbc rod transplant is real cheap. Less than $150.00 / 4 banger. + crank work. Also gives me room to stroke the motor to 3.831. With only reducing the journal size to 2.200 (bbc) and narrowing the cheek.

I don't like the heat induced by welding the bearing surface.so I prefer the reduction of width and offset to welding.

I am having forged slugs quoted right now.

The v8 will be more difficult to balance due to the fairly major Bob weight change. Probably take 2-3 lbs off of the cw. The 4 banger will only need minor dynamic/matching work.

Thanks again.
Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 07:20 AM   #22
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 72
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Sorry I didn't get back to ya yesterday Robert...I wuz in the cellphone deadzone for awhile and then elbow-deep in wayne's non-oiler 392.

This afternoon and evening will be involved with leakdown test onna 352 furd so I'll be in the shop with Todd, we'll be preppin' the cab for removal from the rolling chassis also. I'll ring ya up then. Dave May be here then too, since it's Friday he usually stops in to see what's for dinner.
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 01:10 PM   #23
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Michael,
I got time, don't worry we will get it done even if it takes till 2009.

I now have 2 of my own to build. Mine and one for a buddy. Also have a 304 to do up for another buddy. I will need a standard sized 345 crank for that.

I will be buying the set of bbc rods in the next couple of weeks to use on my engine and if you go a different direction I will have a place to hang the other four rods.

The cd dave came up with is the same cd I have with the stroked 196 crank and bbc rods. I suppose the worst case would be bushing the bbc rods to take the .0625 smaller pin I will stick with the bbc (990) pin and have pistons made..

I will need a 196 crank to do initial mock of my engine to make sure everything fits.

Either way give me a call tonight and if dave is around we can discuss shizz.

Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 02:12 PM   #24
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

This project is only temporarily back burner. After I get over paying property tax and paying off the holiday induced debt I am going to order an off the shelf set of rods that I feel best integrate into our plans to stroke the two 4 bangers. I will send 4 of the rods to mm in orygon for his project if he wants them.

I need the rods to decide how the crank rod journal width will be modified including placing the proper journal fillet clearance chamfer on the rods big end(only one side on a v8 rod).

Then it will be off to Lancaster to pickup a crank or two from Mike at IH only. After sizing the cranks up I will sent to my crank guy for updates.

I have chosen lifter bushings already and will be having them installed and fitted for roller lifters. I have not gone any further on the cam design though that is really fairly simple. Lobe books exist from all of the major grinders to chose from based on desired major or minor lobe diameters.

More after the first of the year.

Robert
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 07:11 PM   #25
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
 
Michael Mayben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 10
Location: Leaburg, Orygone
Age: 72
Posts: 7,156
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

I'm inna holding pattern also, as I've yet to get both the core motors all the way down for inspection. I'm way overextended on other folks projects, but we did get wayne's 392 motor oilin' today, so that's one down the rathole for now!

Dave's core supplier just let us know on Monday that he has two 196 cranks available. We're still trying to find time to make a run up there and inventory all the IH-related core stuff they have. I don't know if those two motors are already broke down or May still be complete. If the cranks are already on the ground, then I'll have the "parts source" do the machine work on the cranks in portland.

I don't wanna bust down my existing 196 just to rob a crank, those motors are too hard to come by to part out. And I've used the rig three times this past week as a tug around here, it's a helluva lot more useful than a teama mules ya gotta feed every day and clean up after.
__________________
Are yawl ready??? If not here's some training ya might need to prepare:

http://vimeo.com/8149690
Michael Mayben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 10:02 PM   #26
Mike Stevens
Junior Member
 
Mike Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member Number: 802
Location: Dallas, Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 11
Question Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

So ...where do I find the budget 152 build up thread? I'm thinking: cam, header, port & polish, and fuel injection. Do 304 cams work in 152s and is there a 2.5l f.I. Option you have been considering? Yeah funny noob questions. thanks guys! I love this forum!
__________________
196? Scout 800- first (and only) International after many years of classic Mustangs...Hey?! why does this thing have 2 axles?!
Mike Stevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 07:01 PM   #27
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Mike,

real sorry we missed your question.... Here it goes, better late than never

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike stevens View Post
so ...where do I find the budget 152 build up thread? I'm thinking: cam, header, port & polish, and fuel injection.
We don't have a budget 2.5l build here yet but I'm sure we could work you up a nice spec for relatively little money.

What do ya want to get out of it? More torque will take a bit of effort but a good cam with high lift and short duration say 202-204 intake duration, compression say 9-1 for 87 regular or 9.5-1 and use mid grade 89 octane. We can have basically any profile ground on a 4 popper cam core. The 4 cylinder cam core is no longer made but we have a rebuilder who builds up the old lobes so the proper lift integral can be attained. A simple regrind looses some lobe volume and will never put out the same torque curve as a fully rebuilt lobe.

A header won't do much for torque I would stay with the oe cast iron one but redo from the collector back in 2 1/4 and a good flowing muffler

a suitable TBI system can be transplanted from a 2.5l j$$p. Or smiler sized GM product. Then you get to tune it. I vote stay with a carb. Maybe dhla's od dcoe's. 28-32 mm chokes. Way more torque and hp. Efi is for emissions imo

port and polish with care if you want torque, to much port volume can hurt more than it helps. Properly done there are gains to be made here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike stevens View Post
Do 304 cams work in 152s and is there a 2.5l f.I. Option you have been considering? Yeah funny noob questions. thanks guys! I love this forum!
The 304 cam won't work. Firing order, kills the idea but the lobes are in the correct location with exception of the fuel pump lobe which doesn't exist on the v8 cam per say.

We would be happy to start a 2.5l build thread if you wanted to have a go at it. I have a some what stock 2.5 in my 65 and it does very well.
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown

Last edited by Robert Kenney; 02-06-2009 at 08:57 PM..
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 09:45 PM   #28
Mike Stevens
Junior Member
 
Mike Stevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member Number: 802
Location: Dallas, Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 11
Question Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike
__________________
196? Scout 800- first (and only) International after many years of classic Mustangs...Hey?! why does this thing have 2 axles?!
Mike Stevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 03:50 AM   #29
Carl Wiese
Senior Member
 
Carl Wiese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 13
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 531
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike stevens View Post
hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike
There's a guy in our club with a stock 152 running 37's. It's all about gearing. It's an offroad only truck and hangs just fine with big v-8's and anything else on the trail.
__________________
Certified 100% Grade A Prime Web Wheeler.
Carl Wiese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 08:22 AM   #30
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
 
Robert Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Member Number: 543
Location: So Cal
Posts: 3,419
Default Re: The Ultimate IH Fourbanger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike stevens View Post
hmmm...well there seem to be dead ends on alot of the easy roads I try to take with this Scout. I want to run my Scout offroad only. I'm trying to stay away from the v8 swap and just build what I have. I know fuel injection will work better in the off kilter situations I'm planning on getting myself into. It sounds like the old muscle car engine buildup ideas dont work for the 152. Can I ever expect over 100 hp? Maybe 150 lbs./ft. Of torque? Enough to push 35's around strongly? Maybe I'm looking at it all the wrong way, but there seriously isnt a way to get a new cam either? Wow, this is gonna be rough. Thanks -Mike
No dead ends at all really!!! Sorry if I sounded that way. 100 hp easy 150 ft./lb May take stroking the 152 crank and boring .060 over to 160 inches

your 152 can be modified to make in excess of 230 hp with stroke mods to 188 inches but it all comes to money. Pistons rods and a stroked 196 crank.

Stroking a 152 to 188-190 inches will be a better performer that a 196 on a trail or the street. It will make more peak torque, make more torque earlier and make more hp more efficiently. Also run on regular.

Add gearing changes that carl mentioned and you will have one hell of a rig with a 4 banger to boot.

So it comes down to pick your poison.
__________________
Robert Kenney

“Don't lift until the fear of death over comes the fear of speed.” Author Unknown
Robert Kenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:36 AM.