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Old 03-13-2013, 07:44 AM   #1
Erik VanRenselaar
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Default ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Is there an ideal additive product for those of us who use modern off-the-shelf motor oils in their pre-1981 engines? I see that the stp oil treatment touts that it contains zddp.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Hi eric,

the swepco 502 oil improver contains both zinc and micronized moly. One pint treats up to 5 quarts of oil and at that rate will increase the zinc by approx 175ppm. It is not recommended for engines requiring sm, sn or cj-4 oils as it will increase the level and put it out of spec for those newer engines which are 2007 and newer.

Units of 502 are available from IH Parts America. For more information go to the "lubricants" section.

Incidently, the treatment ratio mentioned above will increase the zinc level to around 1,000 ppm, whereas the swepco 306 engine oil in 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50 has a +/- 1,600 ppm level of zinc and 1,200 ppm of phosphorous. Those are also available at IH Parts America under the same tag of "lubricants."
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Old 03-14-2013, 01:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swepco View Post
hi eric,

the swepco 502 oil improver contains both zinc and micronized moly. One pint treats up to 5 quarts of oil and at that rate will increase the zinc by approx 175ppm. It is not recommended for engines requiring sm, sn or cj-4 oils as it will increase the level and put it out of spec for those newer engines which are 2007 and newer.

Units of 502 are available from IH Parts America. For more information go to the "lubricants" section.

Incidently, the treatment ratio mentioned above will increase the zinc level to around 1,000 ppm, whereas the swepco 306 engine oil in 10w30, 15w40 and 20w50 has a +/- 1,600 ppm level of zinc and 1,200 ppm of phosphorous. Those are also available at IH Parts America under the same tag of "lubricants."

Hi,
could you also comment on this quote regarding levels of zinc and phosphorous:

" since the additives are polar, they fight for surface area. The addition of extra zddp usually results in reduced cleanliness, higher engine temperatures and more deposits. Some studies have shown that going past 1400 ppm of phosphorus will increase wear over the long term, and going above 2000 ppm will begin to break down iron and result in camshaft spalling. "

also, what does this mean?

" zddp, when burned, leaves deposits on pistons, heads, ring grooves, valves, etc. Tests
show that oils with 1% sulfated ash leave 58% less deposits in the engine than oils with
1.45% sulfated ash. Every ounce of additive that you add increases the ash content."

does zddp become sulfated ash or what is sulfated ash and is it good or bad?

This is quoted from: http://www.widman.biz/uploads/corvair_oil.pdf

Thanks.
Steve

Last edited by overdrivesteve; 03-14-2013 at 01:41 AM..
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

I use zddplus

it actually has zddp in it and that is what our engines really need.

Zddp (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is not the same as zinc or moly
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by icefyre13th View Post
I use zddplus

it actually has zddp in it and that is what our engines really need.

Zddp (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is not the same as zinc or moly
Ok, so now I'm even more confused. When you state "it actually has zddp in it", are you referring to the zddplus product or the swepco 306 oil? The swepco guy above states the 306 oil has zinc and moly but you state that is different from zddp and that the zddp is what we really need. So does the 306 have zddp too? I've been reading for hours on the subject tonight, and now my head is swimming with information overload, but from other sites as the zddplus.com site has been down tonight.

Perhaps I'm trying to over-analyze a good thing. But I'm really just trying to intelligently understand and not be a sheep. Perhaps if anyone can share some links such as "oil analysis for dummies" it would help get me up to speed.

Let me ask another question, has anyone ever heard of a better oil or oil formulation for our old, low rpm, heavy v8 gas engines? And other than price, has anyone ever found a negative review in any forum for the swepco oils or their other products? I admit in my searching for independent reviews, other than price, I've seen nothing negative. But my searching keeps directing me to porsche and bmw forums, which do not equate well to our engines.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Just use good ole shell rotella ! It's made for our engines.Jeff
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

As mentioned in many many other threads, this is a free site provided and paid for by IH Parts America. I would again ask that you not post links or price references to competing products or vendors. We encourage an open discussion on most topics but would appreciate you limiting it to discussion. Thanks for understanding.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Woop's sorry bout that,I forgot-Jeff
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Zddp is a compound molecule, this is what gives it the high pressure lubrication properties the cam lobes need.

Zinc by itself will do nothing, same with phosphorus. But combined into zddp then it works.

The newer vehicles with catalytic convertors do not like zinc as zinc will coat the internals of the convertor and shorten its life.

Zddp is a sacrificial molecule, during its "life" it breaks down into zinc and phosphorus........and why you have to change your oil, along with other reasons. And why the oil companies are reducing / eliminating zddp in oils made today (so the convertors last as long as the federal government wants).

If you do not Want to have to use zddp additives then find an oil that still has it in (like jeffs recommendation) or replace the cam with a roller lifter type (but I don't think we have any for the IH engines).

I like using additives and the oil (that is api recognized, not one that claims to exceed api standards) of my choice together (full synthetic) as imho The other types of oils are not as good.

Last edited by IceFyre13th; 03-15-2013 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

I have always used valvoline vr-1, it has the zddp that the older engines need and is available at most auto parts stores.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:38 PM   #11
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

As a customer I'll make a small testimony to the superior nature of swepco products.

I have found the 306 particularly well suited to the engines in the old iron I keep runn'in. The viscosity seems to hold up better in that my operating pressures when hot stay up even at 5k miles. It's not my aim to discredit chevron in any way; but what I would see for example would be a hot idle pressure of 18 to 20 psi when the delo 15/40 was put in at change time. After 3k miles, the hot idle pressure would hover at just about 10 to 12 psi. Is that viscosity breakdown? Without a viscosity meter I cannot say. My lifter clatter at start up that used to be frequent with other oils, and especially when it was near changing time, is practically gone since I switched to 306.
That's just my real world experience, I have no proof in raw data; but I'm very happy with the 306.

The oil has the recommended levels of protection be it zddp, boron etc. Oil and additives are a very tightly controlled recipe and it's very easy to upset them with additives off the shelf. It has always been a give and take balance, and you end up sacrificing one while thinking you've gained on the other if you dope it yourself. Also the additives the manufacturers use are cost competitive, so the better oils with the better ingredients follows the you get what you pay for.

As "boutique" (as opposed to off the shelf) oils go, yes it's pricey, but I can go to 5k miles easy between changes, or once a year if I don't put on that many miles. It makes good cents for me.

I shy away from racing oil for one important reason; I don't drive a race track. While they have superior boundary lube protection, anti-scuff and film strength improvers, etc.; I don't see them as long term protection for intermittent use or commuter driving. The detergents, acid fighters, rust and oxidation prevention and such aren't in them to the degree I need them. What's the 1st that goes after a heat? Usually the oil gets changed, so why bother with the chemistry to the degree that Joe comooter, tim trailrider, or grandma needs.

Something to think about.

Last edited by Greg R; 03-15-2013 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Please realize that swepco products are made under stringent conditions and utilize proprietary formulations. I can only comment on areas which do not apply as proprietary.

Zddp has been a commonly used additive in engine oils for several decades, it is in plentiful supply and is available in different quality grades. With the epa limiting the amount of zddp in engine oil starting in 2007 with the sm (now also sn) api classifications, a horde of manufacturers came out with their version of zinc/phosphorous combinations for the protection of cams, particularly in those engines which utilize flat tappet cams. Some of these can be classified as "snake oils" and are marketed very well to the unsuspecting public.

One of the comments made on this subject was that too much zinc would not be good, and in fact cause some detrimental effects such as harmful deposits. That is probably good when you do not have a balanced formula which utilizes top quality chemicals and additives.

The swepco 306 engine oil has a balanced additive package, it has been produced to meet not only gasoline engine requirements up until 2007, as well as diesel engine requirements up until 2007. Now, most oil manufacturers produce separate items for gasoline and diesel equipment because the restriction on zddp is different on them.

306 will meet the api rating of "sl" and previous specifications for gasoline engine, it also meets the api rating of ci-4 for diesel engines and previous designations (the 4 in ci-4 designates that it is for a 4-stroke engine). This is called "backwards compatibility." the confusing part to people who are low-informational concerning specifications is that the new oil specs say that they are "backwards compatible" which, by law they must be, however that does not mean that the newer ones are the best to use in older equipment of pre 2007.

502 oil improver has been produced for a long time without making a chemical change. It is a balanced formulation which not only contains zddp, but also has other chemicals in the formula which contain a detergent package, just to name one. It is not recommended for use in 2007 or newer engines because it will raise the level such that it will be out of spec.

With regard to references relating to porsche & bmw - you might have guessed that practically any make or model of any vehicle has certain areas which "need help." most porsches for example have flat tappet cam engines - they also have some hard shifting problems in the manual transmissions, and swepco 201 gear oil is renowned for helping, if not eliminating those problems.

Greg mentioned that he would not use a "racing oil" in his equipment. Swepco was not formulated to be a "racing oil," but it has done very well in the high performance race cars, and in fact my hobby is 360 sprint cars which utilize flat tappet cams and usually run out at over 700 horsepower on a modified chevrolet 350 block...those engines are somewhat pricy at over $30,000.00, so these owners want to get more bang for their buck and have equipment that lasts longer. Greg's "testimonial" about using swepco 306 is typical for the people who have tried it.

IHPA has been using swepco lubricants since 2007, and after testing it on his own equipment, Jeff asked me to be the monitor for the lube section. I deliver orders to his shop practically every-other week which he uses in the shop, as well as for an extensive web order business. From the volume of products he has gone through in the last 6 years, I'm sure he has over 100 customers with the products.

Sulfonated ash is used as part of the detergent additive package and as a metal deactivator, it is true that in some applications it leaves deposits, this is why engine manufacturers who build engines like the detroit diesel 2-strokes, and engines which run on digester gas, or cng require a very low amount of it in the oils they use. Most of those would call for less than .01% sulfonated ash.
If you were to dip a dirty copper penny into a highly concentrated sulfonated ash mixture, it would come out bright and shiny, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily good in high amounts in an engine oil.

You have to remember that lubrication chemistry is very complicated and sometimes being your own chemist is not a good idea unless you are a full fledged tribologist!

I hope I covered everything with this post.

Dick
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

All great, except api sf is where they started reducing zddp in oils to "protect the cat".

Api se is at the levels of zddp our engines were designed to run on, sl has greatly reduced levels compared to api se, sf started the reduction due to the catalytic convertors and the feds push to protect us........(more like the greed to make more money from their investments).

So, great, the oil meets oil meets sl rating.....too bad the levels of zddp are less than the levels of se, the level that our engines were designed to run on.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:27 PM   #14
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Icefyre13th,

it sounds like you know a lot about engine oil.

I cannot refute your statement about se engine oils containing more zddp than sl does as I am not privy to the formulas, even at that time. But saying that what you state is correct, the point is that the question was "what engine oil can I use in my Scout engines" (paraphrased).

I've done a little research in my api specifications and found that se was warranty approved in 1972, so your time frame is correct, however, it was replaced by sf in 1980 as warranty approved (regardless of the amount of zddp) and became obsolete in 1989.

You will have to agree that not only could the zddp been changed over the years, but most of the other additives and base stocks have as well, and mostly for the good.

You cannot get se any longer, in fact you would probably have to look real hard to get sl. So my recommendation still stands that swepco 306 sl engine oil would be the best I can make. There May be others and as this is a capitalistic society, you certainly have the right to find it, and use it as you see fit. IHPA is a valued customer of mine, and a firm believer in our products, and as long as that relationship exists there is no point in further pursuing this issue. I have no issues with zddplus as I have had permission from them to do some articles in the past.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swepco View Post
icefyre13th,

it sounds like you know a lot about engine oil.

I cannot refute your statement about se engine oils containing more zddp than sl does as I am not privy to the formulas, even at that time. But saying that what you state is correct, the point is that the question was "what engine oil can I use in my Scout engines" (paraphrased).

I've done a little research in my api specifications and found that se was warranty approved in 1972, so your time frame is correct, however, it was replaced by sf in 1980 as warranty approved (regardless of the amount of zddp) and became obsolete in 1989.

You will have to agree that not only could the zddp been changed over the years, but most of the other additives and base stocks have as well, and mostly for the good.

You cannot get se any longer, in fact you would probably have to look real hard to get sl. So my recommendation still stands that swepco 306 sl engine oil would be the best I can make. There May be others and as this is a capitalistic society, you certainly have the right to find it, and use it as you see fit. IHPA is a valued customer of mine, and a firm believer in our products, and as long as that relationship exists there is no point in further pursuing this issue. I have no issues with zddplus as I have had permission from them to do some articles in the past.
So then will adding zddplus to the swepco 306 sl make it the equivalent to se? How much do you recommend for my 9 quart system to make it equivalent to se? Will that then resolve all issues/concerns and give me the best possible of all oil-protection worlds?

I admit I don't know much about oils and its hard for me to understand oils, but I've also read that by mixing identical oils but of different viscosities it's possible to extend the range. For example mixing 10w30 with 20w50 extends the range to 10w50. Actually the article said it would in reality be 5 off so in the above example the mix would result in 15w45. You comments on this too is appreciated, but especially the first paragraph questions about adding zddplus to the swepco 306. Will that help or damage the swepco oil blend?
Thank you.
Steve
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