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Old 11-07-2017, 01:22 PM   #1
PUCK
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Default 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Hey I H friends

Recently picked up a 77 traveller it's got a 345 v8. It starts OK and drives fine but it's got this issue where it dies at stop lights and occasionally when I first warm it up and I throw it into reverse out the drive way it dies on me

It's a new motor build with about 33k on the odo, it's got an idle thing that sets it to Rev high when it's started to warm it up.

Sorry I'm not a pro mechanic but pretty handy backyard scientist so please forgive the lack of knowledge on the terms, I love this truck and just want it to run right.

I searched up threads on here and binder planet about this issue but it seems like most folks just wind up finding random issues with their fuel system.

This truck has got all new stuff as of 33k miles ago, so I was thinking it's just the idle speed? And the change of climate that's messing with the carb it was a California truck now lives in New Jersey

Also while Im on the subject can anyone reccomend a good mechanic for the scout in NJ? I'm having a hell of a time finding help.

Thanks guys!
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:24 PM   #2
Scoutboy74
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

It would help us to properly identify the carb. One of the best ways to do that is to get the rock strainer assy off and out of the way to reveal the carb. Then take some quality pics from both sides, plus focused in tight on the front of the airhorn where the list number is stamped in. Then post them to this thread.

The whatchyoomabobbermickdoohickythingamajig that speedupifies things is the fast idle cam. Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Its a function of your automatic choke. Its engaged along with the choke by depressing the throttle before cranking the starter. How long are you allowing the engine to warm up on a cold start before you throw it into gear? You should allow an honest five minutes when you can. These rust piles tend to be cold-blooded.

The stalling out in gear could be several things, but most likely closely related to the stalling when first placed into gear cold.

Do you have a tachometer? The warm engine curb idle speed does need to be set to an acceptable range. That range varies a little depending on if the trans is auto or standard. Setting idle speed by ear is an acquired skill that takes hours of time spent under the hood to get. So a tachometer is the accurate way to measure engine speed. It could also be that the fuel float level in the carb isn't set correctly. Or it could be that some internal carb passage(s) are partially blocked. Or the idle air/fuel ratio mixture screws might be out of adjustment.

As for specific mechanic recommendations, in your area, probably not going to happen. Not because we don't want to. We would if we could. This is a West coast forum. The majority, not all, but majority of active members here reside in the western half of the country. I would poll your friends, family and co-workers. But I will say this. Most auto shops aren't going to want to work on your obsolete, red-headed stepchild. That isn't how I personally feel about these rigs, mind you. Its just a harsh reality. Rip off the band-aid all at once instead of slowly peeling it, right? Most auto shops have invested thousands of dollars into sophisticated scanners and diagnostic equipment, most of which is useless when working on a Scout. There's no interface to plug their purdy li'l pooderized scanner into under that Scout dash. It takes olde thyme mechanical knowledge to work on these rigs and that seems to be a vanishing thing. There's nothing all that difficult about it. It just takes time to learn and apply the basic principles. So you need to find yourself and old school throwback. Don't take it to some place that specializes in Prius, Elements and similar disposable turdbuckets. Find a shop that is kind of stuck in the past and resisting the pressure "move into the '90's". Could be tough to do. Forget about trying to find anyone that is well versed in Internationals. That's a lost cause.
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Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

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Old 11-08-2017, 06:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

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Old 11-08-2017, 06:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

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Old 11-08-2017, 06:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Sb I totally hear you, I want to learn to do the service myself but since I'm using this rig as my dd I need a quick fix until I can teach myself and get the proper tools to do it on my own.

I've found a local guy who does work on old trucks and cars and he's talking with me now about fixing it, basically your opinion was the same as theirs either a vacuum issue or an idle speed issue.

They also mentioned to me that the stock carb is crap and that I should think about an upgrade, I was wondering what your thoughts on that were?

Also if you need more pictures I can take some...

Thank you for all your help I have to come out to the west coast to buy you a beer some time
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Thanks for the pics. They always have a story to tell. Somebody has gotten fairly creative under that hood a few times. Typical situation. I agree with the mechanic's opinion of the stock two barrel carbs, which were a Holley model 2210. Lets just say they're not my favorites and leave it at that. But Mr. Puck, that's not what you have on your Scout. This is where the creativity comes in. That appears to be a Motorcraft or Autolite unit...a model 2100 I suspect, which would have originally been sitting atop a Ford engine. Those were never original to an IHC product. This is exactly why pictures are so important. I could have started advising you under the assumption that everything under your hood is mostly original when that clearly is not the case.

Now, this is not unheard of stuff by any means. That 2100 has the reputation of being a decent carb, and as such has gained some popularity in these circles as an affordable, junk yard solution. I can't really speak to the truth of that theory from first hand experience. I'm not running that particular carb on any of my junk. Clearly its in far from new condition. The overall installation and assimilation of it to the IH engine appears to be somewhat of a Bubba-Joe hack job.

First thing that raises my eyebrows is the plumbing of the fuel line and hoses between the fuel pump and the carb fuel inlet. Much longer than it needs to be to span the distance...loopdy-looped and precariously secured to the upper radiator fitting with a zip tie...and last but not least, two fuel filters in series less than six inches apart in classic Department of Redundancy Department fashion. Like wearing a belt and suspenders at the same time. That chunk of plumbing could stand to be improved. One fuel filter is sufficient in that location.

Next thing that has my brows furrowed a bit is the mechanical linkage between the carb throttle and the auto transmission throttle valve rod. Its a bit hard to see everything involved clearly from these pics, but from what I can see, its enough to have me concerned about how that whole linkage is actuating. It looks like the overall geometry and quite possibly the adjustment too could be off.

These things I've mentioned aren't direct contributors to the stumbling issue, but they're worthy of closer inspection and possible alteration. As for getting that carb to the point where its playing nicely, you'd almost be better off seeking specific advise about that on a Ford enthusiast forum. At least they know those mixers. I hate to say it, but you might be time and frustration ahead to just cut bait on that carb and go in a different direction. I'm not saying that carb is junk, but it very well may need to be overhauled. Even going with a different, more proven carb option could result in some down time during the transition. Its tough when the rig you're relying on every day could really stand to have some kinks massaged out. That generally involves some down time.

These are great rigs to learn basic mechanic principles on and it looks to me like you have a decent "laboratory" on your hands. It would be a shame to miss out on these learning opportunities by passing them off to a hired wrench, but I understand the situation you're in. I don't know how much more I can offer you at this point beyond well-wishes.
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Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"

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Old 11-08-2017, 09:55 AM   #8
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Thumbs up Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Wow sb thanks for that run down, unfortunately the current situation means I sort of have to pass it off, but the good thing is that the mechanic is close to my house and I can at least watch everything happen so I know

I always try to learn to do everything myself on my vehicles but also don't make the fatal mistake of jumping into the deep end

What would be your reccomended carb for this truck? I'd like to know since it seems it's going to have to go back to the yard...

Also I'm going to pass all the concerns you had to the mechanic for sure I appreciate it.

You've been beyond helpful to my total newbie ass.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:22 AM   #9
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Well that's handy! Maybe your mechanic will turn out to be a Motorcraft carb fanboy and just be a total whiz with them. If not, my suggestion would be hands down the Holley 2300 list 0-7448. That or the Holley Street Avenger list 0-80350. They're essentially the same carb. I think the biggest difference is the finish and the latter may be slightly less cabbage than the former. They're both rated at 350cfm delivery which works quite well for these slow-revving dump truck engines. They come set up for manual choke, but can be easily modified to go automatic/electric for a little more coin. Don't let the mechanic talk you into the Holley list 4412 which is a 500cfm version. Its a high performance carb and calibrated way too fat across the spectrum to be practical for your engine. Remind him that you're not going circle track racing in this Scout if he tries to push a 4412 on you. Also don't let him steer you towards adapting ANY 4 barrel carb to your two barrel manifold. That idea is just too stupid for words in my opinion.

Do have him give a close look at that throttle to transmission rod linkage. The Chrysler A-727 Torqueflite automatic trans you have requires constant input from your throttle application to operate correctly. If your wrench is worth his weight in salt, he'll know what I'm talking about and be able to assess the function and adjust as needed.
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Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

This discussion is gold. I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything you've taught me already sb74!

Im going to update this and the wiper thread asap looks like it's gonna be a long night lol

I had another issue I was hoping you could lend wisdom on, it's been very difficult to shift the drive train shifter? In particular shifting to 4h. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong but the po told me that while in park, shift it into the desired gear and then back to drive. Maybe I'm not pushing hard enough? I've driven manual cars, old porsche etc with tough straight cut gear boxes and they weren't this hard to shift.

Again I seriously appreciate all your help and hopefully if anyone on the east coast needs scout help I can become a resource like you one day in the future.

ALL my best! Updates soon!
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

That Motocraft carb is not bad and is real easy to rebuild. I've got a 304 that is setup with the same carb, but I've never run it.

Dieing at idle could be a whole bunch of different issues. Particularly with all the messing around that's been done under the hood. I would suggest that you start by doing a full tune-up, beginning with a compression test and including a PCV valve dizzy rotor, cap and new wires. It would suck to do a bunch of carb work, only to find there is a sticking PCV valve causing the issue.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:18 AM   #12
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Well, first thing is purge from your memory the shifting instruction given to you by the previous owner. Its complete balderdash.

You have a Dana 20 part time, four wheel drive transfer case. By part time, it means that you have the option of keeping it in rear wheel drive mode (2Hi) for the vast majority of your driving and then selecting power transfer to the front axle in Hi or Lo ranges as dictated by traction and road surface conditions. You also have the A-727 auto trans. Those two components in combination can be a bit fussy towards one another at certain times. 4Hi range is meant to be selected "on-the-fly" after the front hubs have been pre-selected from "Free" to "Lock" positions. Just a steady application of backwards pressure on the stick at a steady forward speed under 50 mph should be enough to go from 2Hi to 4Hi, provided the rear wheels aren't already slipping. Don't engage the 4x4 while the rear wheels are spinning out due to lost traction. Damage can ensue. Getting out of 4Hi back into 2Hi is just the reverse process. Accelerate the engine and then while letting off the gas slightly, push gently but firmly enough forward to pop forward one position. Hi range selection/deselection can absolutely be done with the rig stopped. Doing so requires that the transmission selector be in NEUTRAL, not PARK. Nothing but grinding will happen while you are in PARK. Now, for 4Lo range, the vehicle MUST be stopped. The hubs should also be pre-selected as above. With the engine running, place the trans gear selector in NEUTRAL and apply firm forward pressure on the t-case lever. Coming back out of 4Lo is a reverse of this process with some additional finagaling often required because of the auto trans. Grasp the auto trans gear selector with your LEFT hand, slowly cycling back and forth and forth and back between R-N-D positions while simultaneously applying firm backwards pressure to the t-case selector with your right hand. Its awkward and clumsy, but effective. Once the t-case lever pops out of 4Lo into its NEUTRAL position, you may experience some grinding trying to go from N to 2Hi, even while still doing the trans selector shimmy with your left hand. If you're confident that you can re-fire the engine after shutting it off, I'd do so at this point. Give a pause to let the gears stop spinning and then give a quick pop to the t-case lever. It should then go easily and quietly into 2hi. At which point you can re-fire the engine, turn your hubs back out to "Free" and be on your way.
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Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Geez man so I was basically told the opposite of how to do it, wonderful.

Thanks again for more invaluable information sb!

Since we are talking about it anyway, I was wondering what your thoughts are on when to use 4hi and 4lo I know 2hi is regular driving and 4lo is very difficult ground, rocks etc but how about 4hi? I was told never to use 4hi on any kind of paved surface, but what about snow? Or gravel? Or an inch of water?
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Never engage 4x4 either range on a hard, dry surface, especially pavement. There needs to be some give on your driving surface to avoid parts damage in 4x4. 4Hi is fine on pavement with a layer of snow and/or slush because that creates the give. No real advantage to running 4Hi on rain slicked pavement. Just reduce speed accordingly. There is no gear reduction in 4Hi. All it does is transfer some power to the front axle in addition to whats already going to the rear. So 4Hi is for conditions slippery enough where 2Hi won't quite cut it, but not so bad that you couldn't safely go 35mph with the added traction if you desired. 4Lo gives you gear reduction for rougher, more serious terrain where speed is not advantageous. 4Lo is really helpful when you need to negotiate down a steep, slippery decline and don't want to be on your brakes heating them up and causing the wheels to skid and the vehicle to lose control. You want to keep the wheels rolling, but not too fast. With the gear reduction, your engine braking will help hold you back with minimal brake input. When you get a chance, take it out someplace where you have some soft ground and maybe a couple mole hills. Nothing that you can get yourself into trouble on. Just get it out there and play around in both Hi and Lo ranges and start getting a feel for the difference between the two.
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Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram SLT 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500/8800# GVWR/12K# winch
Hooty - '74 SII 4x4 - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x11.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/8K# winch
Lemuel - '72 1210 LWB 4x4 CS - 304/TF727/NP205/RA D60 4.10 - "Pull Lemuel, pull!"
Mongo - '71 1210 LWB 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Krac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:06 AM   #15
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Thumbs up Re: 1977 traveller dies when I stop or when I put into gear

Geez sounds like I've been doing it wrong for a long time, though not with the scout, with older jeeps I've had I used to use the 4x4 in really bad rain and sleet conditions.

Seriously can't thank you enough for the posts sb! You've educated this dummy that's for sure. Tha K you for welcoming me to the asylum!

I only hope I can also contribute, and at least there will now be someone on the east coast who's figuring out how to navigate all this so I can possibly point someone else in the right direction.
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