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77SSII 08-28-2009 04:18 PM

No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Read "bringing old iron to life" and followed it.
Started the engine with a valve cover with a big section cut out of it on the driver side. I ran the motor for 5 minutes @1800 rpm and still no oil in the rocker assy. No loud or funny noises coming from that head but I shut it down anyways.
The motor was rebuilt and has been sitting for 9 years! Can it take a long time for the lifters to fill up and get oil up through the pushrods?
A reputable shop did the work and I have 50 psi in the block. The gauges in the truck were rebuilt and they show proper pressure & temp. I put fresh oil in it two weeks ago and primed the pump well.
Should I be ready to cry over a cam bearing or is there still hope?
Mark from boston

RobertC 08-28-2009 05:18 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Did you "prime" the oil pump until you got oil to the rocker arms / "top end"?

"un-full" lifters make a lot of noise -- because the push rods are "loose" (no "contact") and "bang" against the lifter / rocker arm.

"un-filled" lifters would make noise for 20 - 60 seconds on startup -- longer if the push rod / rocker arm "initial set" is not "close".

Was this engine assembled and not run at the time of assembly?

It is possible that assembly lube was used and it is now "hardened".

Also, I think it is possible to put the rock arms / shaft back in "wrong" and that affects oil flow thru the rocker shaft / arms.

With no oil, I would expect the rocker shaft to be "galled" even after 5 minutes with no oil.

This is a thread you should read if you have not already...

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...-assembly.html

Michael Mayben 08-28-2009 05:31 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
I'm moving this thread to "gas engine tech".

77SSII 08-28-2009 06:38 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Thanks Robert,
yes, the engine was assembled and never run.
I used the original rotor to prime the pump w/my cordless drill that has a max rpm of 1800.
I got oil in the passenger side head almost immediately but nothing on the other side. I then called Jeff in a panic and he told me to read some threads so I found michael's one with the starting old iron and followed that. I spun the motor slowly while my 'ol man spun the drill but I never managed to get oil up top on the driver side. I just quit after about 10 revs and said it was impossible to spin it in 1 degree increments to line up the cam bearing w/the hole. I do have 50 psi at the pressure sending unit.
I took off the rocker assy and the hole & bases are lined up properly w/the hole in the head and the rocker shaft is orientated correctly. That is as far as I got taking things apart. My rocker assy is the 5 post type and I have another 304 w/the 9 post if I galled the shaft. The engine builder said "I have to run it for a long time to hurt anything and he agreed to the 5 minute run.
It might be my dumb luck that the assy lube hardened in one side of the motor and not the other? Could 50 psi be a result of a partially plugged galley passage or is 50 normal?

Michael Mayben 08-28-2009 08:49 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Let's start at the beginning and follow the directions in the write up we posted!

And do both rocker assemblies not lube or just one side? #2 cam bearing feeds the driver side, #4 cam bearing feeds the passenger side. If neither side oils, then the cam bearings are most likely not installed correctly...a very common occurrence when done by machine shops that are not familiar with these engines and their nuances.

Assembly lube can't "harden".

Trying to find the sweet spot in the cam rotation where the rocker shaft can feed is extremely tedious. You must remove the spark plugs to allow easy rotation of the crank with a wrench in tiny increments.

Your "engine builder" sounds like someone I'd run away from in a hurry or has no prior experience in dealing with these engines and verifying proper engine lubrication. 5 minutes with no lube to the cam bearings/marginal oil to the lifters, and no oil to a rocker assembly is the same as an eternity on these engines, the cam bearing(s) will be wiped out immediately.

One more time, the lubrication scenario on these engines is totally unlike any comparable engine, you cannot compare the lube path/performance with any other "conventional" piece of detroit iron!

If you cannot get a heavy volume of oil discharge at the feed hole in each head while slowly rotating the crank and finding the sweet spot (it will not feed both sides simultaneously), then there is a definite oil delivery issue. Such as...a cam bearing not aligned properly with the oil holes in the block, or installed too "shallow", or too "deep" into the bearing saddle. Or...the actual oil feed hole in the cam journal is partially/fully obstructed. Or...there is an obstruction of some sort within the lubrication path in the block. This path is very simple and can be easily verified at the time the engine is assembled...in fact it must be verified (as should the entire lube path) during and after engine assembly and before firing off the motor! And that includes the main oil galleries and lifter feeds at each point.

These motors do not "oil" at the pushrod tips in any fashion, the pushrods tips are oiled by throwoff of oil from properly oiling engine.

The lifter gallery on each side will flood heavily at idle if the lube system is working. Ya can easily watch this through the pushrod holes while the engine is running if you have installed a cutaway valve cover. If it don't heavily flood, then the lifter galleries are not receiving full oil supply from the rear of the cam through the feed hole.

Ya simply must carefully rotate the crank and find the "spot" of cam alignment. And that "spot" on each journal is not equidistant, the oil hole is offset across the bearing journal of the cam. Oil delivery through the cam hole is a "timed" occurrence in a pulsating fashion...though at above idle rpm it appears to the eye (and the pressure gauge) as a solid/heavy pressurized stream.

Because the oil pressure sender port is right off the outlet side of the oil pump, the pressure at that point really means nothing as far as diagnosis for this situation. All the potential trouble spots are downstream of that location. As long as the pump will make sufficient pressure/flow to fill and maintain the lifter galleries (which also means the oil level is adequate!), and supply a feed to the cam spit holes, oil will emerge from the feed holes (one on each side) on the machined rocker stand boss on the head.

As for the reputation of the engine builder back when...that means nothing at this point! Review this thread for a similar scenario:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ler-392-a.html

That motor was also "built" by a reputable machine shop...the same one I have do work for me! But they also scruud up wayne's first rebuild, blamed the failure on the carb, then built him a second motor that also did not oil! And the first motor which they told wayne had "holed" a piston most likely has nothing wrong with it other than a botched assembly job!

77SSII 08-29-2009 03:55 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Thanks michael,
I started this whole thing by calling the engine builder and asked if I should pull the valve covers after/during the oil pump priming. He said yes so I did and started w/the passenger side. Oil started to flow almost immediately! I said ok, even a blind squirell finds a nut every now and again and felt pretty good. I moved on to the driver side and nothin'. After cleaning my pants I called Jeff and he said to read your thread which I did. I rotated counter clockwise 10 times and poured an ounce of m.m. Oil into each cyl. And couldn't get oil in that drivers side head while I indexed the crank and my Dad spun the cordless drill. I then removed the rocker assy to check if the hole in the head was lined up w/the stand and it was and then I checked the orientation of the rocker shaft and it was good.
I told the engine builder about the intermittent oiling w/the IH engines and told me about the '56 Chevy's that would do the same thing and they had to be run to spin fast enough for the intermittent oiling to reach the rocker assy.
Wouldn't you think that if all was ok after 5 minutes of 1800 rpm it would produce oil? I think that trumps the rotating by hand test w/the drill don't you?
Should I drain the pan and see if any metal is in there? The oil is 2-3 weeks old and should not have been really viscous by that point. If he put it together correct on the #3 (or#4) doesn't that give me hope it did correctly on the other?
I'm gonna go down there Monday and see if he'll come over to take a look.
I saw you made an adapter out of a rubber plug to test pressure at the gallery hole in the head. If there is no oil, would that register any pressure if air is compressable?
Do I start dis-assembling this thing to see where the last point is that gets oil?

77SSII 08-29-2009 04:16 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Thanks michael,
I started this whole thing by calling the engine builder and asked if I should pull the valve covers after/during the oil pump priming. He said yes so I did and started w/the passenger side. Oil started to flow almost immediately! I said ok, even a blind squirell finds a nut every now and again and felt pretty good. I moved on to the driver side and nothin'. After cleaning my pants I called Jeff and he said to read your thread which I did. I rotated counter clockwise 10 times and poured an ounce of m.m. Oil into each cyl. And couldn't get oil in that drivers side head while I indexed the crank and my Dad spun the cordless drill. I then removed the rocker assy to check if the hole in the head was lined up w/the stand and it was and then I checked the orientation of the rocker shaft and it was good.
I told the engine builder about the intermittent oiling w/the IH engines and told me about the '56 Chevy's that would do the same thing and they had to be run to spin fast enough for the intermittent oiling to reach the rocker assy.
Wouldn't you think that if all was ok after 5 minutes of 1800 rpm it would produce oil? I think that trumps the rotating by hand test w/the drill don't you?
Should I drain the pan and see if any metal is in there? The oil is 2-3 weeks old and should not have been really viscous by that point. If he put it together correct on the #3 (or#4) doesn't that give me hope it did correctly on the other?
I'm gonna go down there Monday and see if he'll come over to take a look.
I saw you made an adapter out of a rubber plug to test pressure at the gallery hole in the head. If there is no oil, would that register any pressure if air is compressable?
Do I start dis-assembling this thing to see where the last point is that gets oil?

77SSII 08-29-2009 04:29 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Ok, read about wayne's 392. I think I have a double hump oil pan(?). It has a smaller section at the front of the motor then is recessed, like where the front axle would travel if jumping the grand canyon then it comes back down again where it is larger than the front section and where the drain plug is. If I am down 1/2 quart or so would this affect my situation? Should I put 6 or 7 quarts in then worry about draining some out later? Can I do damage (more that what I am doing now) by running 7 quarts?
Again, I am getting oil in the passenger side rocker assy. If it's low on oil by a quart or a half quart, is there enough oil to still get distributed throughout the whole motor? I bought a new dipstick tube and had to bend it and weld on a new mounting tab for the stan's headers that are on it. I didn't change the tube's length but if it is bent funny, could it aim the dipstick in a different direction inside the pan? It was a bitch to get the tube inside the pan and I lubed it to get it in there. I also had to grind the dipstick down so that it would make the bends all the way into the pan.
What do you use for an adapter to test oil pressure in the hole in the head like what you did for wayne?
Unless I hear back, I'm gonna add another quart or two, remove the hei and use the drill to prime everything. Is there a way to cheat and say that at 145 degrees (something like that) after tdc of #8 that the cam bearing lines up w/the gallery?

Scoutboy74 08-29-2009 05:58 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
You won't hurt anything by adding an additional quart. That was an IH band-aid approach to oil starvation during extended high rpm operation in scouts with the double sump pan. Go ahead and do it, but I doubt it will have much if any effect on your present issue seeing as how you're miles away from running the engine at or near wot for 30 minutes straight.

RobertC 08-29-2009 07:08 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
7 qts will not hurt anything -- it is actually recommended for the double hump pan on scouts.

If your oil level is / was too low when you started your engine, you would hear "noises" in the valve train.

Yes, you need to get oil to the driver's side rocker arm assembly "by hand" before running the engine.

You need to reread mchael's post above and the non-oiling rocker post again.

I do not know if there is an "easy" way to get the oil passages "lined up" while hand priming based on michael's description -- just patience and time.

What michael is trying to point out about the cam bearings is that there are holes in the cam bearings and holes in the metal "bosses" the cam bearings "sit" in.

These holes have to be perfectly lined up -- I think I have read where people have "reamed out" the holes in the cam bearings to make them match better.

If the cam bearings holes are not "lined up" -- partially blocked or totally blocked -- little or no oil gets to the top of the head / rocker assembly.

From michael's post (and your description), it appears that the cam bearing for the passenger's side is lined up correctly (since you get oil to the rocker assembly).

Since you ran the engine for 5 minutes with no oil getting to the top of the driver's side head (my understanding of your post), it is possible (probable?) that the cam bearing for the driver's side is not lined up correctly.

Michael Mayben 08-29-2009 09:39 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
1 Attachment(s)
The oil level "change for the Scout II platform only was a workaround on the part of IH service engineering/warranty and addressed in a service letter to dealers back in the day.

See this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...do-I-have.html

The adapter I fabbed for determining oil pressure at the feed spit hole in each cylinder head is a semi-rigid rubber fitting found in a mityvac hand vacuum pump kit, pic attached.

I have not gone to the trouble of determining degrees of crank rotation regarding when the #3 and #4 cam journals/bearings align to allow oil passage. But I will determine that soon using a 345 I'm currently building. And that build is being documented here, it will include how to properly line up the cam bearings for initial installation, and then how to verify and "adjust" the oil holes in each cam bearing/location:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...tor-lives.html

The alignment process involves using a aircraft-pattern drill bit along with a stop collar. Then the holes are slightly chamfered with a carbide burr in a die grinder.

Also...as part of this precise cam bearing installation process, Robert kenney and I are looking at additional methodology to possibly improve oil delivery to the lifter gallery. Improper rear cam bearing installation has a huge impact on oil supply to the lifters and May be a contributing factor as to why some of these engines have oiling issues only after the block is assembled during overhaul.

That is because the mechanic/machinist performing the cam bearing install just "knocked 'em in" and paid little attention to proper alignment and depth of installation. Again...very few of these engines are seen today in the typical machine shop, and the machinist simply treats 'em like a chryfordrolet! We also know that the durabond cam bearings do not have some of the spit holes drilled in the correct locations but can be fudged with proper attention to installation.

If anyone is concerned with whether their particular engine has the correct oil pan and/or dipstick setup, simply drain it and then install seven quarts of oil (for the Scout II double hump pan only!). Then just Mark the dipstick accordingly!

A low oil level will not impact oil delivery to only one side of the sv engine though, it would affect both sides the same. If the engine is a 196 in a Scout II with double hump pan, it would affect oil delivery of course.

Let me repeat...the Scout II double hump pan is only used oem in the Scout II platform, this is not an issue regarding the sv engines when used in other platforms with front sump pans as long as the correct oil pump assembly is used for the pan being used.

But running seven quarts of oil in any sv or I-4 motor will not create a windage situation.

As far as "why" some sv motors tend to starve one side or the other for oil to the rocker assembly...Robert and I have a theory that we share and we're working on analyzing this. In our collective experience regarding the sv engine, we find overwhelmingly that it's the passenger side that most lube-related issues seem to impact first. But that is in regard to an engine that has not been previously serviced or had cam bearings replaced. If the cam bearings have been replaced...then the #1 cause of poor/no oil delivery, or lifter "noise" (and/or both) is improper cam bearing installation.

77SSII 08-29-2009 11:40 AM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Ok, so now I have a little under 6 quarts in the motor (I will take a pic. Of my oil pan and try to attach it so that I can confirm that it is in fact the "double sump" type. What does a single sump pan look like? I put 5 in but w/the valve cover off, some leaked out on the initial prime on the pass. Side.
I will add another quart for a total of a little under 7. I will then rotate and prime. If I do this myself, I'll rotate the crank then spin the drill (about 1800 rpm). How long should I spin the drill? It will be an intermittant process like doing cpr. If the cam spins at half the speed of the crank, if I rotate the motor 2-3 degrees it will translate into 1-1.5 degrees of cam rotation? I also have to rotate the the crank twice for a full cam rotation? My drill is also cordless (a nice milwaukee 28v) but is the only 1/2 shank one I have and I am using a large drill bit inside the distributor shaft. I have been spinning the pump for about 10 seconds each cycle and I can only make about 1 full crank rotation on a battery.
What about trying to blow the gallery backwards w/compressed air? I can drain the pan and leave the plug open. I'll remove the rocker assy and blow into the oil passage. If I get air coming out of the pan then maybe I have blown the obstruction out of the gallery? If no air comes out then I have a bad #3 bearing? Can I assume that the oil passage is sealed btwn the block & head and the compressed air will travel out the drain hole? The block where the cam resides is open to the oil pan or is it it's own chamber where the air would not come out the pan?
Basically, this would be the reverse of just doing what you recommend w/the drill and turning the motor over 1 degree at a time? Basically, the cam bearing has to be lined up to get any movement from any fluid in that gallery wheather it's oil up or compressed air down?
I just put the truck back together after a 12 year project! If the worse case scenario takes place, do I have to pull the motor or can bearings be replaced w/the block in the chassis?

Michael Mayben 08-29-2009 04:32 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
1 Attachment(s)
Blowing air through the lube system won't prove anything. Every bearing/journal has "clearance" which allows air escape. And the internal drillings for the lube passageways are labyrinths.

When any block is assembled, all passageways should be verified as "clear" of any debris before the soft plugs and thread-in plugs are installed. That is done by solvent cleaning the passages with various sizes of steel and brass brushes made for that purpose...followed up by powerwashing with a commercial detergent. And no rtv should be used anywhere, that shit is only good for plugging passages and orifices when it squeezes. If there is evidence of rtv on the rear cam plate at the block, oil pump mount, oil filter system mounting, oil pickup screen, anywhere near the rocker shaft assemblies, etc., that is evidence that the shit could be inside.

And yes, I've seen all the above crap with these engines on a regular basis...including a 152 I busted down into parts status just this morning. And yes, the cam bearings were wiped out and the cam is "flat" on that engine...along with the oil pickup screen being completely plugged with rtv shit and mung.

The camshaft lube hole across bearing journal #2 and #4 is not drilled dead center...it's offset. Thus the two oil holes only align with the hole in the bearing in a "staggered" manner. The oil hole for the #5 cam bearing which serves the lifter galleries is drilled dead center, perpendicular to the axis of the cam.

This pic shows the process of using a drill bit to verify cam bearing/block saddle alignment after the bearing is installed. If the bearing is not properly aligned, then ya use the drill to clean up the hole, then the bearing surface is deburred with the die grinder in a hand operation. And once all oil passages are verified, cylinder and lifter bore honing is completed, the block is sterilized for the final time in preparation for coating the interior so that assembly can begin.

When the oil passage in the cam journal, is aligned in the proper position with the bearing on either #2 or #4, then once the oil pump is spun, oil delivery through the spit hole on either bank will be near instantaneous. But those passages do not align simultaneously...again oil delivery is a "timed" event based upon engineering.

Michael Mayben 08-29-2009 04:37 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
1 Attachment(s)
This shot shows rtv where it was used to install the cam plate on the rear of the block. Some dumfuck used only rtv instead of a gasket at this location!!!

Result...very restricted oil flow to the lifter galleries (thus extreme, random lifter collapse), rtv contamination throughout the lube passages, destruction of both rocker assemblies that were later rednecked into an unusable pile of crap, and eventual complete cam bearing failure while I watched!

Michael Mayben 08-29-2009 04:43 PM

Re: No Oil in the Driverside Head
 
Cam bearings "could" be replaced without pulling the motor but I'd never try that! And that would be after removing the radiator/condenser and transmission/flywheel/flex plate to allow the cam plate to be removed.

And with the heads on the engine, it's not possible to verify oil hole alignment of the #2 and #4 cam bearings.

Even with the proper cam bearing tool, installing new cam bearings can be a very tedious job even for an experienced person. And it certainly helps to have four hands for doing so.


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