Timing Set Indexing For SV and 4 CYL APP's

[Robert Kenney]

Re: SV Series Timing Mark Variation

The purpose of this thread is to compare the various IH sv and 4 cylinder timing sets for the way their installation effects cam location. Much talk in the IH community has circulated over the years about the different IH timing set 151 059 revisions r1, r2 and, r3 plus the aftermarket 3336s timing sets not installing at the proper cam position. I hope to dispel any question regarding this and recommend a fix via offset cam-gear keys if needed. This by no means says that you should just assemble an engine and not verify cam position but serve as a reference when diagnosing a drivability issue or choosing parts.

I got the package from mr mayben shown below. All sets are matched by the set id number stamped at time of manufacture. Mixing of gears from different sets will also be explored.

This timing set index test will be run on a 152 4 cylinder using the 4's cam and other native parts. All lobe cl measurements will be remeasured with each timing set to verify the relative cam index point.

I throughly measured all of the original IH cam specs using the old lifters that have a fairly large concave wear pattern on them.
I want to run the measurement routine again with a fresh flat faced lifter and see if the numbers change. A quick run down on the "worn" oe cam.

Original IH installed timing set(assume r1 but have not removed to read #)

gross lobe cl 110
intake cl:112, duration: 180* @ .050, lobe lift:.219
exhaust cl 108 duration 181* @ .050, lobe lift: .225

cam is installed 2* retarded by the numbers but May be caused by timing set or lobe wear.

I have all of the valve event timing but will post after rerunning with the fresh lifter. The retest will be run using a lifter that came out of my non rotating lifter deal that I reground on a surface grinder in a v-block

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

This will be a great thread...we should stickee!

And...I didn't think ta send ya some lifters also. I do have a quite a few used ones that are not "flat"/worn.

Also, edit your post to advise if the cam numbers are for the 152 or the sv motor (or both!). I'm assuming sv cam that tim donated to the project?

 

[Robert Kenney]

I remeasured the cam using the ground flat faced lifter and only very small changes were found. I edited the first post in this thread to reflect them.

Gross lobe cl 110
intake cl:112@.100, duration: 180* @ .050, lobe lift: .219
exhaust cl 108@.100, duration 181* @ .050, lobe lift: .225

the following valve events are at .050 lifter rise:

intake:
opens: 22* atdc
closes: 22* abdc

exhaust:
opens: 18* bbdc
closes: 17* btdc

oh yea, I forgot to mention that I bored one of the degree wheel bushings out to 5/8 (.625) to accomadate the big IH hub bolt. Sorry michael.

Pictures of measurment setup below:

 

[Michael Mayben]

The degree wheel is yours dude! I've already snaked another one for myself!

Nice work on the "pointer"! I have a near identical setup I can use left over from a kawasaki dealer tool kit for the original 350cc big horn motors from the late 60's/early 70's. And several different "adapters" for various dial indicators.

So the only things I'll need back at some point are the timing gear sets. The rest of it is yours to keep. The used gears are going back in sonja's motor, the new set will go in my stroker 152 if ya think they are good enuff!

 

[Robert Kenney]

Thanks for the degree wheel michael! You know that a guy can never have to many tools.

I now have 2 good timing sets, one from the motor in my Scout and one from the stroker core. They both look perfect and I will put one of them in the stroker project.

A couple of teeth on each of the sets you sent me got dinged when you pulled them originally. A quick lick with a jewelers file and they will be good to go.

Robert

 

[Jesse B.]

Robert,

thank you for taking this extra step, although I think it has led to new questions. If the icl is 112*, and the ecl is 108*, then is this cam ground 2* retarded from the factory?

Your duration @ .050 clears up a significant discrepancy I have noticed with the published data. According to many, the stock replacement cam for these engines, clevite #cep2291415 has the following specs:

duration @ .050 lobe lift (intake): 188*
duration @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust): 178*
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (intake opens): 17* atdc
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (intake closes): 25* abdc
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust opens): 19* bbdc
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust closes): 21* btdc

yet when I put these numbers into my desktop dyno program, the duration and valve timing do not match up, and I get screwy results. I understand, and don't flame me for this, that it is very possible the clevite oem replacement cam is simply ground differently than a stock cam, but that does not explain why the duration and valve timing do not match up. When I put your numbers into my program, everything matches up just fine.

Lastly, the lobe lift seems strangely low. If the intake is .219, then valve lift is .350, assuming a 1.6 rocker ratio. This is .090 less than what is stated in the IH manual (.440 valve lift). The same is not quite true of the exhaust. If the lift is .225, then valve lift is .382, assuming a 1.7 rocker ratio. This is slightly less than stock (.395), so it could be explained by wear?

Thanks, jess

 

[Robert Kenney]

Jesse,

this exercise is to verify relative timing set install position not to verify cam specs but I threw them in anyhow.

May be simpler to do it old school. Draw the degree wheel and Mark the events you or I have posted. The desk top dyno program requires the events to be in the correct relative value to the datum like tdc or bdc. Atdc to btdc the sine will change to a neg. Value.

Opens 22 atdc same as -22 btdc
closes 22 abdc

180 -22 + 22 = 180

same with the exhaust....

The clevite valve event and duration numbers add up correctly.

duration @ .050 lobe lift (intake): 188*
duration @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust): 178*
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (intake opens): 17* atdc
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (intake closes): 25* abdc

180 - 17 + 25= 188*

Valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust opens): 19* bbdc
valve timing @ .050 lobe lift (exhaust closes): 21* btdc

180 - 21 + 19 = 178*

I say that the cam is worn so the 2* retard could be timing set wear or lobe wear. Same as the low lift. I will be verifying rocker arm ratios at a later date. I don't think anyone has gone to the trouble of measuring rr and documenting it.

Thanks for reading.

Robert

 

[Jesse B.]

Thanks Robert. Let me double check what is going on with the duration and valve timing events in my program and get back to you. I'll start a different thread so I don't hijack this one.

 

[Robert Kenney]

the results are in!

​

We have install points for 3 timing sets and they are as follows:

part #------ set id-----intake cl @ .1 tappet rise
151 059 r1----35--------112*

151 059 r2----28--------111*

3336s---------n/a------ 111.75*

for all intents and purposes they are all the same. Even +\- 2 degrees will be good for the street. Never the less we will offer an offset cam locating key for tweeking the timing to the specific application. Probably a 2* and a 4* more than that a tooth can be off indexed for 8* (45/360). Need to find a supply or make them.
Would like to run the test on a r3 set and maybe a mix of two r1 sets before I blow the motor apart the rest of the way. Will post later.

Some pictures and evidence that the test was really run.

151 059 r2

After market #3336s

#28 is the set id

The gear puller you should use to avoid mangling the teeth.

 

[Robert Kenney]

If anybody has a r3 timing set I could borrow to run the test on let me know. Orygonians can give it to michael mayben and he can see that I get it. It will be returned after and not damaged.

Thanks in advance
Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

I'm still looking for that elusive "r3 or "r93" gear set! I'd feel better about this if I could locate some kinda reference to that number somewhere...but since nothing close to that number is shown in any "price list" I have, nor in any parts list (even for the last gen Scout II apps), then I'm leaning towards the possibility it doesn't really exist.

However, I have no references for any ihc agriculture/industrial parts lists. It "might" be a set that was used only oem out of the plant that built those motors (separate from the motor truck engine plant) for a combine or corn picker??? Or water pump? Or palmer marine engine "core" (reverse rotation cam drive)??

But my suggestion is...

Since the only set we can source on a regular basis is the aftermarket generic 3336s gear set, why not just set up for using an offset key with that single gear set??

The early "reverse helix" gear set (r1/r91) is not a viable option since it's not available new and very few folks will ever see one of those anyway (though they May have also been used in the 266 and some early 304 assembly line-built motors). If a new gear set is used in anyone's engine build (either commercial or home handydan) the 3336s aftermarket gears are the only ones that anyone can source.

So how about doing all the cam and valve timing calcs from now on using the 3336s gear set as the base component? And we'll always reference the cam/timing data based upon the use only of the 3336s gear set??

I have a couplea cam woodruff keys here, so I'll have my bubba see what he can come up with. Appears to be just a standard pattern woodruff. I don't have any offset keys here, but I know folks that do have 'em in assortments.

 

[Robert Kenney]

I won't worry about the "mythical" r3 set. I'll put it in the column with tooth fairies and chupacabras.

my test says that it doesn't matter what set you use! They all install the same. R1, r2 or 3336s don't make any difference to the cam timing. But always verify cam timing.

Imho the IH sets are of a harder material and good to reuse if the wear pattern on the teeth is uniform.

Robert

 

[Robert Kenney]

Sooooooooo....? What else do wee want to do with the cam timing test. Maybe I missed the next step during one of our conversations. . post up your recomendations mm or Jeff .

if we want to do a new can I will need one .

Robert

 

[Tim Potter]

Hey Robert, nice work

so now that it is known that the 3 gearsets used are the same +-.002, wouldnt any offset keys have to be for the specific aftermarket cam that will be installed?

The bottom line remains that regardless of what gearset you have, the cam still must be degreed in

 

[Robert Kenney]

Tim,
in the context of your deal. Your cam is in it's intended location. All 3 sets including your set times exactly the same. Your cam was iirc ground straight up eg 110/110 and based on all timing set info we now have it is within 2 degrees of the card if not right on.

Yes always verify timing but in your case I would suspect cam timing allot less now and don't recommend tearing it down unless it is hurt.

Robert

 

[Michael Mayben]

My original thoughts were to be able to offer offset keys (which May actually exist now once I do the research) that could be used to compensate for any production irregularities or to be able to "play" with cam timing/installation.

And I don't know if I mentioned this or not previously...dave sez it was "common knowledge" back in the day, that the crankshaft keyway on the I-4 and sv motors was cut up to 4 degrees off it's spec'd position when the cranks were machined. The motors that they rebuilt for fleet service in the "factory branches" were all checked upon reassembly and if needed, an offset key (sourced in bulk) was used. He's currently researching this for me as to the source of those items, his memory is sometimes as non-func as mine!

So I guess now all that's left is to verify rocker arm ratio for each type rocker Robert! Sounds like ya got all the cam data ya need now to go to the "next step"?

 

[Tim Potter]

tim,
in the context of your deal. Your cam is in it's intended location. All 3 sets including your set times exactly the same. Your cam was iirc ground straight up eg 110/110 and based on all timing set info we now have it is within 2 degrees of the card if not right on.

Yes always verify timing but in your case I would suspect cam timing allot less now and don't recommend tearing it down unless it is hurt.

Robert

Picture of my cam card.... For some reason I'm thinking it was ground 5* advanced.
If the position of my cam is not the culprit causing low vac and sluggish performance in this engine then I what am I to think?
Robert, I told you about the unsteady vacuum readings I am getting now (first time) and the "puffing" in the exhaust. I haven't yet determined the cause but, it's either flat lobes (apx 13k miles) bent pushrods or stuck valves. No additional valve train noise though???

 

[Michael Mayben]

Can this "xxx-built" motor deal get any worse tim????

Time for another compression test, followed by a leakdown test. Do that with both valve covers removed so ya can see what's going on in the rocker assembly lubrication arena.

"stuck/sticking valves" = no/weak lubrication of the rocker assembly. Did the "xxx" bastards rework the rocker shafts/assemblies like they shoulda??

I'm involved in a very similar deal right here, hope to finish off this motor of wayne's this coming week:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/1016-waynes-Holley-470-truck-avenger.html

Thanks for posting the cam card, that really adds to the knowledge base here!

 

[Tim Potter]

can this "xxx-built" motor deal get any worse tim????

Time for another compression test, followed by a leakdown test. Do that with both valve covers removed so ya can see what's going on in the rocker assembly lubrication arena.

"stuck/sticking valves" = no/weak lubrication of the rocker assembly. Did the "xxx" bastards rework the rocker shafts/assemblies like they shoulda??

I'm involved in a very similar deal right here, hope to finish off this motor of wayne's this coming week:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/carb-tech/1016-waynes-Holley-470-truck-avenger.html

Thanks for posting the cam card, that really adds to the knowledge base here!

Michael,
I believe that they did clean the rocker shafts because I "believe" I saw new welch plugs in the ends. The heads/valves/springs were relatively new(headwork done by xxx for previous motor) but they took them back and reworked them to make sure ther was no bearing material stuck anywhere in them or in the rockers; thats what I'm told.
There is something about this motor that is wrong. I don't know what. All I really know is that it doesn't run worth a damn. I'm about to yank the thing out and just give it to Robert. Maybe there is a chance I can find a runner 345 to throw in for a while until he/we can get to mine. I got 7k in this freekin' thing and I shouldn't be having these problems

 

[Robert Kenney]

my original thoughts were to be able to offer offset keys (which May actually exist now once I do the research) that could be used to compensate for any production irregularities or to be able to "play" with cam timing/installation.

And I don't know if I mentioned this or not previously...dave sez it was "common knowledge" back in the day, that the crankshaft keyway on the I-4 and sv motors was cut up to 4 degrees off it's spec'd position when the cranks were machined. The motors that they rebuilt for fleet service in the "factory branches" were all checked upon reassembly and if needed, an offset key (sourced in bulk) was used. He's currently researching this for me as to the source of those items, his memory is sometimes as non-func as mine!

So I guess now all that's left is to verify rocker arm ratio for each type rocker Robert! Sounds like ya got all the cam data ya need now to go to the "next step"?

I am satisfied but you guys May want to run other tests. I would be happy to do it.

I am putting the rocker arm test fixture together this weekend.
Should be able to run it next weekend


the key should be 45 degrees from the #1 rod journal
cl. I didn't find a 4 * discrepancy on the test 4-banger. Seemed pretty much right on.

Robert