Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Let's start off this forum by posting issues anyone May be having regarding engine cooling and cooling system components.
Engine Cooling Systems and Components
- Thread starter Michael Mayben
- Start date
Craig
Active member
Ok as you know I've been chasing a cooling issue for a while now. I've read and implemented many of your ideas you have posted over the years. The statement "it was not broke from the factory", just kills me 
I know you right, but just want to find whats up with my cooling system.
To update others here is everything that has been done.
Rebuilt 345 sv IH engine, new napa water pump, rodded out radiator, new hoses, new overflow bottle, new radiator cap stant 13lbs , correct robertshaw 180 degree t-stat and installed by Jeff himself. Radiator isolation mounting, shroud mounted and sealed at the edges, the tranny cooler and p.s. Cooler also seal to radiator for positive flow. The system burped no air. I even installed a viper electric fan which will suck the strips off the road.
So after much ir gun testing and detective work, I decide to pull the water pump and what I found shocked me.
I bought my gmb water pump from napa, with the coveted cast iron impeller ( binder ) what I found is the impeller is not ground correctly. The manual states the impeller should be mounted within .015 to the pump body. Mine is closer to .188 big time ouch!!
Currently looking for my receipt to exchange it.
This could also be the cause of other IH owners in colder areas where there heaters are not working so good.
The plan is to installed the stamp impeller as try to find a good new / rebuilt unit.
I know you right, but just want to find whats up with my cooling system.To update others here is everything that has been done.
Rebuilt 345 sv IH engine, new napa water pump, rodded out radiator, new hoses, new overflow bottle, new radiator cap stant 13lbs , correct robertshaw 180 degree t-stat and installed by Jeff himself. Radiator isolation mounting, shroud mounted and sealed at the edges, the tranny cooler and p.s. Cooler also seal to radiator for positive flow. The system burped no air. I even installed a viper electric fan which will suck the strips off the road.
So after much ir gun testing and detective work, I decide to pull the water pump and what I found shocked me.
I bought my gmb water pump from napa, with the coveted cast iron impeller ( binder ) what I found is the impeller is not ground correctly. The manual states the impeller should be mounted within .015 to the pump body. Mine is closer to .188 big time ouch!!
Currently looking for my receipt to exchange it.
This could also be the cause of other IH owners in colder areas where there heaters are not working so good.
The plan is to installed the stamp impeller as try to find a good new / rebuilt unit.
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Great photo's Craig! Here's an idea - why not press the impeller off of the shaft slightly until it is in spec? It shouldn't cause any harm that I can think of and should increase the water flow. Thoughts?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Great analysis Craig!
What you see is a very common issue regarding aftermarket pumps, both new and reman!!!
And the whole urban myth thang regarding "cast" vs. "stamped" impellers is just that...a bag of bs! If the pump impeller-to-housing/volute clearance is correct, the specified pump volume/flow will be achieved. And my "tech literature" sez that IH had only one, single water pump spec for all I-4 and sv engine apps.
Simply setting your impeller-to-housing clearance to spec will make it flow correctly. And you can easily do that using the playdough/modeling clay test procedure. But the pump housing must be perfectly smooth and exhibit no corrosion pitting or erosion pockets created by cavitation. Jeff's suggestion is definitely possible...but...in my experience, that "moving" of the impeller, no matter how carefully done, May affect the shaft "seal" with a resulting leakage. That stuff does not like being disturbed once it's "run-in"! And...new water pumps are dirt cheeep for this stuff!
Unless Jeff has sold it, he has one single nos cast iron pump impeller in stock! In the old days, it was very common for an IH dealer to simply rebuild the water pump bodies using a "kit", and if the impeller was damaged/corroded beyond use, then an new impeller was installed along with the "kit".
During the bee I was given two IH waterpumps by Matt g., those were IH "renew" pumps (IH remans from a factory branch that did that type work), one was a four hole hub, the other an eight hole hub. The 4-holer was given to monte Thursday night so he can bolt on a solid fan to replace a "big nut" pump that he does not have a big nut clutch for. Both of those pumps had stamped impellers, the only reason for the changeover to those was a "cost-reduction" thing on the part of the IH bean counters back in the day!
By the way, the ihc "ct-404-l" data books shows the water pump specification for all i4-sv engines to be:
85 gallons per minute at 4000 engine rpm
that spec is measured with no thermostat present in the cooling system (thus no restriction), and with a fresh radiator and hoses (no mineral/sludge deposits), and a clean water jacket! There is no differentiation regarding "cast" vs. "stamped" impeller.
That "impeller" topic has been beat to death on the bb over the years with so much bs thrown about it's not even usable! I quite posting about that years ago, it's just a battle that can't be won! One more reason we deal in fact on this forum!
So thank you for bringing up this subject and doing a complete analysis/diagnostic regarding your cooling system issues!
What you see is a very common issue regarding aftermarket pumps, both new and reman!!!
And the whole urban myth thang regarding "cast" vs. "stamped" impellers is just that...a bag of bs! If the pump impeller-to-housing/volute clearance is correct, the specified pump volume/flow will be achieved. And my "tech literature" sez that IH had only one, single water pump spec for all I-4 and sv engine apps.
Simply setting your impeller-to-housing clearance to spec will make it flow correctly. And you can easily do that using the playdough/modeling clay test procedure. But the pump housing must be perfectly smooth and exhibit no corrosion pitting or erosion pockets created by cavitation. Jeff's suggestion is definitely possible...but...in my experience, that "moving" of the impeller, no matter how carefully done, May affect the shaft "seal" with a resulting leakage. That stuff does not like being disturbed once it's "run-in"! And...new water pumps are dirt cheeep for this stuff!
Unless Jeff has sold it, he has one single nos cast iron pump impeller in stock! In the old days, it was very common for an IH dealer to simply rebuild the water pump bodies using a "kit", and if the impeller was damaged/corroded beyond use, then an new impeller was installed along with the "kit".
During the bee I was given two IH waterpumps by Matt g., those were IH "renew" pumps (IH remans from a factory branch that did that type work), one was a four hole hub, the other an eight hole hub. The 4-holer was given to monte Thursday night so he can bolt on a solid fan to replace a "big nut" pump that he does not have a big nut clutch for. Both of those pumps had stamped impellers, the only reason for the changeover to those was a "cost-reduction" thing on the part of the IH bean counters back in the day!
By the way, the ihc "ct-404-l" data books shows the water pump specification for all i4-sv engines to be:
85 gallons per minute at 4000 engine rpm
that spec is measured with no thermostat present in the cooling system (thus no restriction), and with a fresh radiator and hoses (no mineral/sludge deposits), and a clean water jacket! There is no differentiation regarding "cast" vs. "stamped" impeller.
That "impeller" topic has been beat to death on the bb over the years with so much bs thrown about it's not even usable! I quite posting about that years ago, it's just a battle that can't be won! One more reason we deal in fact on this forum!
So thank you for bringing up this subject and doing a complete analysis/diagnostic regarding your cooling system issues!
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Here's a shot I took of the IH oem cast water pump impeller at ihon for comparative purposes.
The cast impeller on Craig's napa-source pump May have actually been machined down during the reman process because the vanes were heavily corroded/pitted and they wanted it to "look" like a reman! No way a remanner would have new pump impellers cast, there is absolutely no demand for that part in today's market. But the stamped impeller is most likely also a part used in large quantities in pumps for engines other than IH.
I see heavy corrosion pitting and possibly cavitation-created erosion on the impeller also. How long was this pump run? No way that kind of erosion could have occurred in under a few years, even if run on ditch water and bar's leak!!
The cast impeller on Craig's napa-source pump May have actually been machined down during the reman process because the vanes were heavily corroded/pitted and they wanted it to "look" like a reman! No way a remanner would have new pump impellers cast, there is absolutely no demand for that part in today's market. But the stamped impeller is most likely also a part used in large quantities in pumps for engines other than IH.
I see heavy corrosion pitting and possibly cavitation-created erosion on the impeller also. How long was this pump run? No way that kind of erosion could have occurred in under a few years, even if run on ditch water and bar's leak!!
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ihpartschad
IHPA General Manager
How many beers did you have before taking that picture???? Do you see anything wrong with it?
Craig
Active member
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Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
I always turn my "man on the tractor" logos upside down....makes it look likea really short dude plowing with a single shovel!
Monte Lauer
Active member
Thanks Mike for the water pump. Mike made it very clear that the electric fan on my Scout was not going to keep my engine cool enough. I had replaced my 258 rambler engine with a IH 304 last year and have had cooing issues every since.
When I dropped in the new motor and transmissin I put the tranny in first and placed it so I could use my old drivelines. When that was done I bolted up the 304 and welded the new engine perches in place. The end result was a 304 that sat about 2" further back than normal. This 304 had the big nut water pump instead of a Scout II water pump. So instead of replacing the water pump and getting a 2" fan extension I tried to run it with a big electric fan.
The electric setup kept me running at about 190* to 200* for ordinary highway use, but when ever I tried pulling any type of hill for an extended period of time the temp would spike. It could get up to 250*.
beings this Scout is my trail rig and pulls alot of hills, it wasn't the ideal setup.Mike convinced me that a mechanical fan and a shroud is the best and easiest way to go. So he gave me the proper water pump (with a stamped impeller) and I installed it along with a stock Scout II shroud and fan. I used a 2" fan extension (it was one that fit a chrysler) that I bought from my local napa auto parts store and now I am running cool.
Craig
Active member
about 1,000 miles or so on the pump, the pump was wet in the photo, and only has a little rusty stuff on it. ( even the caustic hot tanking could not get all the rust out of the rebuilt engine) it's not pitted, just the ruff casting.
I found the receipt and napa gave me a "new" water pump and it's a lot closer to spec. But still did not solve the issue
started the Scout cold in the morning, takes a while to warm up, 5-10 minutes or so. The temp gets to 180 and the t-stat starts to open, about 185 the fan will come on and the temp will drop back down to 180 and sit there. The fan will turn off a minute or two latter. As temp rises back up to 185 the fan will turn back on and cool the motor down to 180, all looks good. Go for a test drive and getting on the freeway and the motor is at 190 on the ramp and after about 5 miles it up to 210. I can run the fan on high or low and it make no difference while on the freeway. Get off head towards home and by the time I pull up to the house ( about 1 mile off the freeway) the temp is back down to 195 and dropping, get home and open hood and within 5 minutes the temp is back to 180. I propped the hood open about 4" that seems to help a bit [d'oh] It's being cooled by convection. I'm back to the radiator, but the shop told me when I had them rod it out that is was fine and my issue was somewhere else.
Note the radiator return hose is not collapsing under load either.
I've learned how to do the "pee pee dance" and get all the air out. Helps to by pass the heater core. When refilling, I fill it up and let it sit for a while and keep topping it off until full. Then warm the engine up and just before the fan kicks in remove the cap, as the fan kicks in the level drops as water starts to flow, just add coolant until full. Drive a few miles lift the pressure release lever to get any trap air out and coolant should flow to overflow bottle. Drive a bit more and let it sit until cooled, and the overflow bottle will replace any trap air with coolant. At this point its good to go.
So what are the next tests that need to be done?
I could pull all the belts and just connect one belt to an electric motor to test the waterpump flow on the engine. 85 gallons a minute is a lot of water
that's more than my garden hose on full blast..I have np putting the stock 7 blade fixed fan back on. I have the shroud. It would take about an hour to pull the electric and install the stock fixed fan. But I had issues on the trail with a stock fixed fan, thats the reason for the monster viper electric fan.
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ihpartschad
IHPA General Manager
Maybe this is way to easy, but what cap are you running? Is it causing to much or not enough pressure? Mike what are your thoughts on the correct presure? I have always leanded to the lighter side, 7lbs or so.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
"typically"...onna conventional clutched fan setup (thermo-control fan, not just a viscous drive, there is a difference!), with a "perfect" cooling system package, no big winch/spare/jerry can/bug screen, etc. Blocking the vehicle grille air intake..."ram air" takes over at around 22>25mph as far as furnishing air flow across the radiator package. That would mean that thermo-control fan clutch would "release" and allow pretty much a cooling fan freewheel condition, with ram air being the primary supply through the rad core. Even though engine heat load will increase with road speed (due to increased engine rpm vs. The non-aero effect of pushing that sheet of plywood frontal area down the road!), the increased air flow offsets that in a typically "balanced" system where the heat exchange capability of the package matches the engine load at any given road speed. So for now, let's stick with "on-highway" testing sitchs, if it cools ok on the road, it'll cool ok offroad! We can deal with any offroad anomalies after getting "normal" cooling performance under control.
Is this radiator a two row, three row, or four row unit? Is it a reconditioned oem radiator or an aftermarket replacement? Can you use your rule and give me a "fin pitch" say off the front of the unit? Pitch is the number of fins per inch. Looking through the radiator from front to rear, does it appear that the fins are "offset" to each other for each core segment, or are the fins all lined up in parade fashion?
My gut tells me that the electric fan system...when not energized...is creating a blockage to ram air. The fan blade May be able to kinda "freewheel" but still serves as an impediment to air flow, thus creating a "reversion" of air through the rad cores, this could be seen in a wind tunnel under "test conditions" through the use of a smoke machine. In other words, air through the radiator is not really "exchanging heat", it's just kinda stagnant in the cores. Does that make sense the way I explained??
This same thing can happen when no shroud is used on a conventional fan setup, especially when extra heat exchangers (like an a/c condenser) is hung in front. Same for bug screens, a clean bug screen can create a 50% reduction in available air flow/volume across any radiator due to the restriction of the "wire gauge" used in the weave and the thread count in the weave. Bugs inna radiator don't have any affect on heat exchange as long as air can move through, bug screens are the same as putting a sheet of cardboard in front of the radiator!
For further testing...take the rig out just as it is on your test drive "loop" and stop a few times and record temps around the entire plumbing/cooling loop using the ir gun. You should be able to "watch" heat exchange taking place. Record the data for reference.
Then..if it's fairly simple to go back to the shroud/mechanical fan system, I'd do that and repeat the exact same test taking readings. Then let's compare the data!
This is really fun kinda stuff to do, and having a ir gun makes it pretty simple and you can see heat transfer inna graphical manner and then understand what is taking place!
And as monte mentioned, where the fan "sits" in the shroud is critical! Normal fan/shroud design has the fan blade with 2/3rds of it's "pitch" inside the shroud, and 1/3rd of the pitch on the engine side of the shroud. That creates best airflow through the core when the fan is engaged and also has a "control" effect regarding fan noise. And...the fan blade pitch diameter is not centered exactly in the shroud opening, it is offset slightly, that is another methodology used for controlling fan noise.
Onna oem sii (or any other IH rig for that matter), the engine centerline is not on the chassis centerline, thus the radiator core support, the radiator core, and the shroud are offset to accommodate that design, also, the shroud design allows the fan face to not be exactly parallel to the radiator core. Again, all this goes into the original cooling module/package design to prevent/reduce air flow reversion under all operating conditions, either "driven fan" or ram air, or both.
Is this radiator a two row, three row, or four row unit? Is it a reconditioned oem radiator or an aftermarket replacement? Can you use your rule and give me a "fin pitch" say off the front of the unit? Pitch is the number of fins per inch. Looking through the radiator from front to rear, does it appear that the fins are "offset" to each other for each core segment, or are the fins all lined up in parade fashion?
My gut tells me that the electric fan system...when not energized...is creating a blockage to ram air. The fan blade May be able to kinda "freewheel" but still serves as an impediment to air flow, thus creating a "reversion" of air through the rad cores, this could be seen in a wind tunnel under "test conditions" through the use of a smoke machine. In other words, air through the radiator is not really "exchanging heat", it's just kinda stagnant in the cores. Does that make sense the way I explained??
This same thing can happen when no shroud is used on a conventional fan setup, especially when extra heat exchangers (like an a/c condenser) is hung in front. Same for bug screens, a clean bug screen can create a 50% reduction in available air flow/volume across any radiator due to the restriction of the "wire gauge" used in the weave and the thread count in the weave. Bugs inna radiator don't have any affect on heat exchange as long as air can move through, bug screens are the same as putting a sheet of cardboard in front of the radiator!
For further testing...take the rig out just as it is on your test drive "loop" and stop a few times and record temps around the entire plumbing/cooling loop using the ir gun. You should be able to "watch" heat exchange taking place. Record the data for reference.
Then..if it's fairly simple to go back to the shroud/mechanical fan system, I'd do that and repeat the exact same test taking readings. Then let's compare the data!
This is really fun kinda stuff to do, and having a ir gun makes it pretty simple and you can see heat transfer inna graphical manner and then understand what is taking place!
And as monte mentioned, where the fan "sits" in the shroud is critical! Normal fan/shroud design has the fan blade with 2/3rds of it's "pitch" inside the shroud, and 1/3rd of the pitch on the engine side of the shroud. That creates best airflow through the core when the fan is engaged and also has a "control" effect regarding fan noise. And...the fan blade pitch diameter is not centered exactly in the shroud opening, it is offset slightly, that is another methodology used for controlling fan noise.
Onna oem sii (or any other IH rig for that matter), the engine centerline is not on the chassis centerline, thus the radiator core support, the radiator core, and the shroud are offset to accommodate that design, also, the shroud design allows the fan face to not be exactly parallel to the radiator core. Again, all this goes into the original cooling module/package design to prevent/reduce air flow reversion under all operating conditions, either "driven fan" or ram air, or both.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
For all IH cooling system apps, I use only two different radiator caps.
For any "vertical flow" radiator (top tank/bottom tank) I use only a 7lb. Stant cap that is tested before installing.
For any "cross-flow" radiator (tanks on either side), I use only a stant 13lb. Cap that is tested before installing.
Why test a new cap??? Because sometimes a new cap is a pos and won't meet spec...therefore it creates an issue rather than fixes an issue!
The worst caps I've ever found are most common today in every parts house. That is the "motorad" line of shit which is a crapball clone of a stant levrvent cap. I've yet to find one that meets spec under any condition!!!! I have one of those in each setpoint offered that I use for cooling system diagnosis "demo" stuff as an example of a cap that will not hold pressure, or that will not vent when it's supposed to. These are new, just like anyone would buy across the counter!
The older IH vertical flow radiators (Scout 80, 800, round body peekup/t'all, etc.) will not tolerate a 10+lb. Pressure cycle, they were never designed for that operating pressure and will continuously fail at several points on the part. Also, some of those rad necks were not designed for a coolant "recovery" system, but just a "burp" can or a draft tube to the ground.
Coolant "overflow" is not the same thing as "coolant recovery"!
Crossflow radiators (sii and squarebody fullsize stuff) were a "design upgrade" for a more efficient, yet smaller footprint package. And those must be used with a properly functioning coolant recovery system, not just a burp bottle. The tanks for crossflow radiators contain "baffles" (the properly designed ones do anyway!) that prevent coolant from simply "dropping" through the tanks. Coolant must circulate throughout all the radiator tubes in order to transfer heat. Same for having a thermostat (or at least some sort of restriction) installed, otherwise the coolant movement through the heat exchanger is too "fast" and heat exchange is impeded.
For any "vertical flow" radiator (top tank/bottom tank) I use only a 7lb. Stant cap that is tested before installing.
For any "cross-flow" radiator (tanks on either side), I use only a stant 13lb. Cap that is tested before installing.
Why test a new cap??? Because sometimes a new cap is a pos and won't meet spec...therefore it creates an issue rather than fixes an issue!
The worst caps I've ever found are most common today in every parts house. That is the "motorad" line of shit which is a crapball clone of a stant levrvent cap. I've yet to find one that meets spec under any condition!!!! I have one of those in each setpoint offered that I use for cooling system diagnosis "demo" stuff as an example of a cap that will not hold pressure, or that will not vent when it's supposed to. These are new, just like anyone would buy across the counter!
The older IH vertical flow radiators (Scout 80, 800, round body peekup/t'all, etc.) will not tolerate a 10+lb. Pressure cycle, they were never designed for that operating pressure and will continuously fail at several points on the part. Also, some of those rad necks were not designed for a coolant "recovery" system, but just a "burp" can or a draft tube to the ground.
Coolant "overflow" is not the same thing as "coolant recovery"!
Crossflow radiators (sii and squarebody fullsize stuff) were a "design upgrade" for a more efficient, yet smaller footprint package. And those must be used with a properly functioning coolant recovery system, not just a burp bottle. The tanks for crossflow radiators contain "baffles" (the properly designed ones do anyway!) that prevent coolant from simply "dropping" through the tanks. Coolant must circulate throughout all the radiator tubes in order to transfer heat. Same for having a thermostat (or at least some sort of restriction) installed, otherwise the coolant movement through the heat exchanger is too "fast" and heat exchange is impeded.
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Craig
Active member
I will update the first post with system data, but it's a 13 lb cap.
I have read every post michael mayben made on the binder related to cooling
ya that's a lot of post!! It's a stock 3 row radiator that was rodded out a year before the rebuild, so I want to get it bench tested for flow. Know of a local place?
The plan tonight is test temp's at several locations. The ir gun gives me a good idea, and I can just point and shoot real fast. My fluke temp probe is dead accurate, but takes more time to move from place to place.
As for fan "stickout" got that down to a science too.
Is my radiator covered by anything. Just my warn winch
I can remove that too, just 2 welded on nuts to cut off. ( thief prevention)Patrick Morris
Member
Just curious what kind of radiator you are using. You said it's been rodded, so that means you didn't actually change the type. Is it the factory one? 2-row? 3-row? Standard or high-efficiency?
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
I don't know of any place offhand that could do an accurate "flow test" for the radiator.
One of our members here, greg r. And I have been kicking that idea around for a couplea years. Greg is a heat exchange expert (that's his bizz). He has access to an engineering lab on the j.o.b. Where they do that kind of stuff. I fixed him up with some water pumps and pump housings to set up onna flow bench to be able to quantify date such as the "cast" vs. "stamped" impeller issue, etc. Don't know where he is with that right now, he and the fambly unit are currently on vacation over in the coast range and is not around here prolly 'til next week to see this thread. He May have some ideas regarding a redneck flowmeter!
Make sure to check how many rows (cores) the radiator in question is running, along with fin pitch and configuration, those are key elements in this deal. I personally have no use for any 4 core radiator onna zih app, no need for those at all. And "high pitch" radiators just don't allow air flow unimpeded.
The winch alone should really make no difference is mounted at least 8"+ in front of the grille, but put up a pic of the position (entire front end actually) and lemme see whatcha got going on.
One of our members here, greg r. And I have been kicking that idea around for a couplea years. Greg is a heat exchange expert (that's his bizz). He has access to an engineering lab on the j.o.b. Where they do that kind of stuff. I fixed him up with some water pumps and pump housings to set up onna flow bench to be able to quantify date such as the "cast" vs. "stamped" impeller issue, etc. Don't know where he is with that right now, he and the fambly unit are currently on vacation over in the coast range and is not around here prolly 'til next week to see this thread. He May have some ideas regarding a redneck flowmeter!
Make sure to check how many rows (cores) the radiator in question is running, along with fin pitch and configuration, those are key elements in this deal. I personally have no use for any 4 core radiator onna zih app, no need for those at all. And "high pitch" radiators just don't allow air flow unimpeded.
The winch alone should really make no difference is mounted at least 8"+ in front of the grille, but put up a pic of the position (entire front end actually) and lemme see whatcha got going on.
Craig
Active member
It's a factory 3 core radiator, it does not look like a h.e version, forgot to snap a pic of the fins with a ruler.
I did get some testing done last night. But first, the factory mech. Fan does work better on the freeway as it was about 10 degrees cooler before the electric fan, but going slow and hard is were the electrical fan shines.
For the test I decide to disconnected the electric fan. The reason being I had done lots of ir testing with the mech. Fan. This turned out to be a great trouble shooting idea!
Points used to test temps. (1) manifold, location water heater outlet. (2) stock temp sender location (3) neck above t-stat (4) radiator top inlet (5) radiator lower outlet (6) drivers side water pump outlet to cly. Head tube and (7) pass. Side tube.
I took 4 readings about 5 minutes apart.
1.. 2.. 3... 4.. 5.. 6.. 7
163 192 127 127 96. 185 172
170 187 183 174 111 180 176
184 196 193 191 165 193 195
193 209 206 208 151 205 203
I suspect the first readings might be affected by the massive iron block just starting to warm up. But on the 2nd reading the temp at the lower radiator hose is off, same with the 3rd. Not sure why the 4th reading returned a lower reading than before, suspect the ir gun was pointed at a slightly different spot, plus I'm turn off the engine at this point. ( note the lower location is on rubber which tends to show a lower reading then on metal.) but before with the mech. Fan running I just suspected it was the "cooling" process taking place when in fact I do have a flow issue. Hindsight would have been to shoot the metal part of the lower radiator with the ir gun, but remember those belts are not finger friendly.
The plan tonight is pull the t-stat and using my camp stove heat some water up to 180-190 and suspend the t-stat in the water to check that for sure it's opening all the way up. If that proves to be good, than pull the radiator and test it by pluging the bottom and filling with water and releasing the plug. ( note on crossflow rads you need to have the tubes vertical, doh) yes this is a shadetree flow test, but should give me some idea of were I stand. At this point I sure hope I have found something as testing the water pump flow will not be an easy feat.
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The manual states the impeller should be mounted within .015 to the pump body. Mine is closer to .188 big time ouch!!
As Mike stated, that is a big factor in any pump meeting it's capacity specs. In my manual, the 4 cyl and the 8 cyl. Sections show that both styles of impellers were used as from the factory!
The deal on setting them up takes a little basic math, and seeing that the steel impeller can get ruined taking it off to start over if it's been pressed on too far; to me leaves a wide latitude to fudge it. That's assuming the bench assembler gives a dam or even knows what he/she is doing. I've used both styles with no regrets, and as Mike an I have said to each other; as long as the impeller is the same design in vane arrangement and diameter, either one works.
Craig: that 1/16" clay space in post 10 is still 4x the factory spec, it'll move coolant but not 85 gpm at rated rpm; just too much "slippage" going on. There still May be enough to keep you from overheating though. I did the clay test on the one that went in my 800. I bought a new one from carquest,(the lifetime warranty one), and it was around 15 to 20 thou.( as accurate as I can be miking clay), as per the book. The original cast vane one worked as well, had the same clearance, but it got replaced because of a leaking seal. They are out there.
I was looking at your temperature scans. The pattern I'm seeing is that very little flow seems to be occuring through the radiator. It has a very wide td(temp diff), plus the pump's mixed flow outlet or discharge,(items 6 & 7), is pretty much the same as it's inlet or the thermostat housing or waterneck,(item 3), outlet. The stat should be wide open at 10 degrees above it's crack open or 205, with full radiator flow and the bypass blocked off. Flow to and from the engine, though it is at idle is only seeing about a 3 or 4 degree rise. At idle with minimum flow through the radiator, you should be gradually cooling down to where the thermostat is passing coolant close to it's setpoint. Path of least resistance, my hunch is that if the thermostat is working correctly, either too much "slippage" or the block off for the bypass.
As of yet, I have no specs on the radiator's delta p,(pressure drop). It can't be much. The block, heater core, thermostat, are fairly sizable in themselves. Most radiator delta p's I've read about mostly deal on air side issues.
I have abandoned the cast vs. Stamped impeller debate. I have done no testing. I got all the parts except test apparatus. Here's the deal. The j.o.b(osu) m.e. Program has shifted it's focus in the last 10-15 years to a more digital based learning lab. What hands-on that remains is mostly small projects, and in the vehicle department are converted motorcyle engines in what I call sprint off-road buggies. At least they build their own chassis & engine mods. The waukesha knock testing engine is gone, a lot of the engine test stands that we could only dream about are gone, hell they've got a full scale clayton in floor dynometer that's been broke since the 80's. Their testing apparatus doesn't seem to be much anymore. I purchased online an sae abstract on modern engine cooling. Out of 4 chapters, the first one was on the 3 author's credentials and contributions, the 2nd on organizational structure for the design committee, the 3rd on what targets to achieve given the various markets( similar to the origin of cup holders for instance), the 4th in a nutshell was after all is said and done hand the parameters to the pump engineer and he'll design a pump for ya. Heck, I got it to get pump info, what a let down. Ain't like the ones from the 60's.
I figured the best way to test was real world. I can easily swap one in the 800 as a "test stand". A pump's performance curve is greatly influenced by the system curve it's designed to match. Also specific gravity and operating temperature of the pumped fluid must also equal design, so the accurate and real way is in a working engine block. Accurate flow meters are expensive, buying one was out, and I could not find, beg or borrow one with the needed range. With that in mind, and that there is a large population of users of both styles of which I am a part of, in my mind that settles the question. I have crawled 28% or steeper grades at upper elevations on 80-85 degree days pulling around 1,800 to 2,000 rpm and the temp gauge never goes past half way. The rig is stock. The key that has never been brought up is how well is the pump put together and what are the clearances. Clearances are talked about in piston, ring, and bearing specs; but you hardly hear of that in the water pump department. If a flow meter does eventually turn up, I May resume a test, but I really feel given the factory manual, and working rigs that exist, it's like testing for the existance of sunshine.
Here a few fundamentals. 65% of the energy that goes into an engine is rejected as heat. Ic engine efficiency is around 30%. Of that rejection, it's fairly equal between the cooling system and the exhaust. As the load and speed increase toward wot, a higher percentage goes out the tailpipe with a decreasing percentage going to the cooling system. We're talk'in magnitude, so the total amount of heat rejection goes up with load, but the burden shifts to the exhaust side.
This is an excerpt straight outta my train'in manual:
" vehicles rated for heavy tow loads have radiators tend to have as much frontal area and as low air restriction as possible, which translate into low fin densities and narrow depth, and aggressive engine driven fan"
on the IH spec sheet going from a "standard" cooling package to an "increased cooling" package on a 345; the tube count is raised or another row, the fin count drops from 13 fpi to 12 fpi, and a 5 bladed fan is substituted for the four. Flow, gotta get flow.
I substitute off-roading for tow loads as the conditions can be similar.
If ya can, could you put your monitor near where yore tak'in the readings so I can see too
As Mike stated, that is a big factor in any pump meeting it's capacity specs. In my manual, the 4 cyl and the 8 cyl. Sections show that both styles of impellers were used as from the factory!
The deal on setting them up takes a little basic math, and seeing that the steel impeller can get ruined taking it off to start over if it's been pressed on too far; to me leaves a wide latitude to fudge it. That's assuming the bench assembler gives a dam or even knows what he/she is doing. I've used both styles with no regrets, and as Mike an I have said to each other; as long as the impeller is the same design in vane arrangement and diameter, either one works.
Craig: that 1/16" clay space in post 10 is still 4x the factory spec, it'll move coolant but not 85 gpm at rated rpm; just too much "slippage" going on. There still May be enough to keep you from overheating though. I did the clay test on the one that went in my 800. I bought a new one from carquest,(the lifetime warranty one), and it was around 15 to 20 thou.( as accurate as I can be miking clay), as per the book. The original cast vane one worked as well, had the same clearance, but it got replaced because of a leaking seal. They are out there.
I was looking at your temperature scans. The pattern I'm seeing is that very little flow seems to be occuring through the radiator. It has a very wide td(temp diff), plus the pump's mixed flow outlet or discharge,(items 6 & 7), is pretty much the same as it's inlet or the thermostat housing or waterneck,(item 3), outlet. The stat should be wide open at 10 degrees above it's crack open or 205, with full radiator flow and the bypass blocked off. Flow to and from the engine, though it is at idle is only seeing about a 3 or 4 degree rise. At idle with minimum flow through the radiator, you should be gradually cooling down to where the thermostat is passing coolant close to it's setpoint. Path of least resistance, my hunch is that if the thermostat is working correctly, either too much "slippage" or the block off for the bypass.
As of yet, I have no specs on the radiator's delta p,(pressure drop). It can't be much. The block, heater core, thermostat, are fairly sizable in themselves. Most radiator delta p's I've read about mostly deal on air side issues.
I have abandoned the cast vs. Stamped impeller debate. I have done no testing. I got all the parts except test apparatus. Here's the deal. The j.o.b(osu) m.e. Program has shifted it's focus in the last 10-15 years to a more digital based learning lab. What hands-on that remains is mostly small projects, and in the vehicle department are converted motorcyle engines in what I call sprint off-road buggies. At least they build their own chassis & engine mods. The waukesha knock testing engine is gone, a lot of the engine test stands that we could only dream about are gone, hell they've got a full scale clayton in floor dynometer that's been broke since the 80's. Their testing apparatus doesn't seem to be much anymore. I purchased online an sae abstract on modern engine cooling. Out of 4 chapters, the first one was on the 3 author's credentials and contributions, the 2nd on organizational structure for the design committee, the 3rd on what targets to achieve given the various markets( similar to the origin of cup holders for instance), the 4th in a nutshell was after all is said and done hand the parameters to the pump engineer and he'll design a pump for ya. Heck, I got it to get pump info, what a let down. Ain't like the ones from the 60's.
I figured the best way to test was real world. I can easily swap one in the 800 as a "test stand". A pump's performance curve is greatly influenced by the system curve it's designed to match. Also specific gravity and operating temperature of the pumped fluid must also equal design, so the accurate and real way is in a working engine block. Accurate flow meters are expensive, buying one was out, and I could not find, beg or borrow one with the needed range. With that in mind, and that there is a large population of users of both styles of which I am a part of, in my mind that settles the question. I have crawled 28% or steeper grades at upper elevations on 80-85 degree days pulling around 1,800 to 2,000 rpm and the temp gauge never goes past half way. The rig is stock. The key that has never been brought up is how well is the pump put together and what are the clearances. Clearances are talked about in piston, ring, and bearing specs; but you hardly hear of that in the water pump department. If a flow meter does eventually turn up, I May resume a test, but I really feel given the factory manual, and working rigs that exist, it's like testing for the existance of sunshine.
Here a few fundamentals. 65% of the energy that goes into an engine is rejected as heat. Ic engine efficiency is around 30%. Of that rejection, it's fairly equal between the cooling system and the exhaust. As the load and speed increase toward wot, a higher percentage goes out the tailpipe with a decreasing percentage going to the cooling system. We're talk'in magnitude, so the total amount of heat rejection goes up with load, but the burden shifts to the exhaust side.
This is an excerpt straight outta my train'in manual:
" vehicles rated for heavy tow loads have radiators tend to have as much frontal area and as low air restriction as possible, which translate into low fin densities and narrow depth, and aggressive engine driven fan"
on the IH spec sheet going from a "standard" cooling package to an "increased cooling" package on a 345; the tube count is raised or another row, the fin count drops from 13 fpi to 12 fpi, and a 5 bladed fan is substituted for the four. Flow, gotta get flow.
I substitute off-roading for tow loads as the conditions can be similar.
If ya can, could you put your monitor near where yore tak'in the readings so I can see too
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Craig
Active member
Wow this is great. I was feeling a bit down after getting home and pulling the t-stat and it tested out fine. I stuck the garden hose in the rad and turn it on full blast and could not out do the radiator. I tested the hose and it will fill a 5 gal pal in 17 seconds. That's no 85 gpm, buts it's flowing good. I stuck the hose in the engine and it flows just fine too. Next was to "red neck" water pump test. I pull all the belts and used an alternator pulley attached to my drill to spin the pump. With some abs riser to feed the pump I spun the drill wfo and little water would come up. 
being 4 times out of spec might not help. I "had" and old pump tried to take it apart and ended up busting it. Not sure how to take the water pump apart. It's late and I'm going to bed. I post more understandable data in the morning.
being 4 times out of spec might not help. I "had" and old pump tried to take it apart and ended up busting it. Not sure how to take the water pump apart. It's late and I'm going to bed. I post more understandable data in the morning.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
Inna nutshell..."cast vs. Stamped" is pure beerthirty bullshit! Let the heat exchange experts on the bb suk on that once a week inna new thread....keeps tha posers busy since they can't find anymore boneyard water pumps to junk out...and they ain't capable of reading a dam glass/mercury thermometer noway, much less spell "ir".
The retail "source" for a water pump or any other service part don't mean crap...it's the manufacturer of the part that matters and if they are maintaining any kind of qc. Those are the folks that need to be held accountable. Napa and car quest and all pro and whatever don't manufacture shit, they just buy out what's cheepest and have it packaged. In fact, they will all have exactly the same part in three different packages...the retail price will reflect a "standard" warranty, a longer warranty, or a "lifetime" warranty. Nothing more than an "extended service warranty" kinda scam, same as what circuit city, best buy, etc. Peddle to make up for profit margin squeeze. No doubt if ya could buy five of the same pump off the shelf from any source, the impeller clearance specs would be all over the place!
Having been an auto industry "insider" for many years, I'll say it one more time..."the replacement service parts business today is in the shitter". The situation is awful, "quality" is smokeblow only. Considering there is no market for an IH service part water pump (or any other part) as far as those folks are concerned (the only market is the niche market served by the IH-related retailers who struggle to find any kind of quality replacement service parts). The only reason any source of new IH water pumps exists is most likely because the stamped impeller is actually used on some other high-volume application totally unrelated to IH. At the pom, the cast impeller is prolly a $1.17 item...the stamped version...$0.75. Do the math.
There are sources who "recondition" water pumps (and many other parts) for special interest applications every day. Those are restored to oem condition/spec, no matter the cost. But no tightazz IH enthusiast will pay that kind of money, they'd much rather find 3 boneyard pumps and spend every weekend pumpin' bar's leak into the radiator to "save" money so they can buy one more chinee kc daylighter. Same folks that collect boneyard batteries and pour cokeecolee and aspirin in 'em to "rebuild" 'em.
Surely ya can find a "loaner" sii radiator and make a quick swap for comparison. No 4 row...no "high efficiency"...just a plain old stocker 3 row from an a/c-equipped rig originally. Those rides weren't broke from the factory...they only git broke when we scruu with stuff what ain't broke!
The retail "source" for a water pump or any other service part don't mean crap...it's the manufacturer of the part that matters and if they are maintaining any kind of qc. Those are the folks that need to be held accountable. Napa and car quest and all pro and whatever don't manufacture shit, they just buy out what's cheepest and have it packaged. In fact, they will all have exactly the same part in three different packages...the retail price will reflect a "standard" warranty, a longer warranty, or a "lifetime" warranty. Nothing more than an "extended service warranty" kinda scam, same as what circuit city, best buy, etc. Peddle to make up for profit margin squeeze. No doubt if ya could buy five of the same pump off the shelf from any source, the impeller clearance specs would be all over the place!
Having been an auto industry "insider" for many years, I'll say it one more time..."the replacement service parts business today is in the shitter". The situation is awful, "quality" is smokeblow only. Considering there is no market for an IH service part water pump (or any other part) as far as those folks are concerned (the only market is the niche market served by the IH-related retailers who struggle to find any kind of quality replacement service parts). The only reason any source of new IH water pumps exists is most likely because the stamped impeller is actually used on some other high-volume application totally unrelated to IH. At the pom, the cast impeller is prolly a $1.17 item...the stamped version...$0.75. Do the math.
There are sources who "recondition" water pumps (and many other parts) for special interest applications every day. Those are restored to oem condition/spec, no matter the cost. But no tightazz IH enthusiast will pay that kind of money, they'd much rather find 3 boneyard pumps and spend every weekend pumpin' bar's leak into the radiator to "save" money so they can buy one more chinee kc daylighter. Same folks that collect boneyard batteries and pour cokeecolee and aspirin in 'em to "rebuild" 'em.
Surely ya can find a "loaner" sii radiator and make a quick swap for comparison. No 4 row...no "high efficiency"...just a plain old stocker 3 row from an a/c-equipped rig originally. Those rides weren't broke from the factory...they only git broke when we scruu with stuff what ain't broke!
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