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Old 07-31-2012, 08:07 AM   #91
tsm1mt
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Any information on the IH adjustable rocker arms to add, mayben? They were used on palmer marine spec IH 392s.

Are these the same as the set Isa Ismail is rumored to have?

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Old 07-31-2012, 10:45 AM   #92
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

I made a pair of arms. Push out the ball stud and the hole is good to thread 5/16-18 or 24. I stoped short of buying the adjuster. I found a source in one of the comercial rocker arm rebuilders. If I recall he would sell them to me for a couple of bucks per. Jest need one long enough to make the distance through the arm. When I threaded the arm I machined the top flat for the lock nut.

Mm is more or less missing but I am sure he has no source for the adjustable arm as we talked about it a while back.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:30 PM   #93
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
in order to try and keep all resources regarding the topic of this thread in one place, I'll re-post a document I've prepped (it's in draft form and has not had the jpegs embedded) regarding how to treat these motors that have been sitting non-rotated for several months/years.

The whole idea here is to prevent wiping out the cam bearings during initial dry-start rotation of the crank/cam shafts. Much of the time, the cam bearings in these engines are not damaged going in, but will quickly fail if a proper pre-lube procedure is not performed. All it takes is about three rotations of a "dry" cam that has "stuck" to the babbit layer of the cam bearing to wipe 'em out. From that point on, it's all down hill, no way to go back and "fix" anything except for replacing the cam bearings with new!
Is there a version of this "old iron" document that has the missing photos? Thanks!
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:30 PM   #94
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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is there a version of this "old iron" document that has the missing photos? Thanks!
Unfortunately, I don't think so. And as life happens, he has not had a chance to update some of the missing information. Unless another forum member has some of the information elsewhere
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:24 AM   #95
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Question Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Ok so I went through the old iron part 1 deal. Spun the oil pump with a shaft I made. It didn’t take too long and lots of oil was coming out the drivers side rocker shaft. Turned motor over by hand a little bit spun it again this time lots of oil on the passenger side. Here is the question: if I am getting good flow up that high shouldn’t my in dash oil pressure gage go up? Because it did not. And I think it should have. Do I need the battery hooked up isn’t the gage electronic? Is my gage bad? I don’t have a pressure tester. What is my problem

thanks
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:13 AM   #96
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Yes, the factory gauge is electric and does require energy from the battery via the ignition switch in order to register. Beyond that, there could be an issue with the op sender which is threaded into the block on the driver side, or the wire running from the sender to the gauge, or the gauge itself. You could temporarily install a mechanical op gauge which would eliminate the potential electrical concerns and would provide a numerical reference that is quite a bit more meaningful than what is displayed by the stock unit. In the future, I recommend starting a unique thread for your issue(s) in favor of tagging onto a somewhat unrelated existing thread.
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:48 PM   #97
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Hi guys,

this is in regard to my '72 Scout II. It has a 304 engine 9 stud rocker assembly with "boat" rocker arms. I've had it for about 8 months and been driving it regularly for about 7 months. I changed the oil as soon as I got it, I use 20-50w quaker state oil and a wix filter and I change the oil every 3-5000 miles. I have 3.07 rears and 33" tires so I tend to run low revs.

There has always been a pronounced valve clicking noise that has kind varied a bit over time but never gone away completely. I tried some marvel mystery oil a couple of times but no real effect. I also went the extra quart of oil which had a small effect. Btw, this completely eliminated valve clicking in my son's Scout. I also always have good oil pressure, the pressure behaves as expected also, 40-50psi when cold, then 10psi hot at idle and constant revs and 20psi hot and accelerating.

The engine has started easily, felt and sounded tight and had plenty of get up and go. So lately the valve noise has started to really hammer and if I drovep say ten highway miles it would start to chug and almost sound like it was backfiring. I have a very short drive to work so I don't normally have this happen.

So I decided it was time to pop the covers and clean all the lifters since I have always assumed that the noise was from a stuck lifter. When I pulled of the passenger cover I found 3-4 of the rocker arms slopping around.

As you can see from pictures pass_1.jpg to pass_4.jpg the rocker assembly looks quite dry and has some definite sludge. I had my son crank the motor for a while and no oil appeared. I then poured some oil down onto each lifter and also by the drain back hole. I then had my son crank the engine again, the lifters all pumped up and you could see the pushrods rotating.

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I then removed the rocker assembly and had my son crank the engine again, no oil came out of the supply hole in the head. The oil I put by the return hole did drain back into the engine. Pass_5 and pass_6 show the head after rocker assembly removal

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Pass_7 thru pass_9 show some of the rocker assembly. The stands that pass oil have wide opening instead of separate hole as you can see. Also I was surprised at the amount of crud considering how nice the outside of the engine looks and how peppy it is.

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I then pulled out a lifter from one of the two center cylinders on the passenger side (the two center cylinders had the most rocker arm play) and promptly had the spring sail away never to be seen again. The bottom of the lifter looks fine I think ans you can see in tapp_1 thru tapp_3.

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I then popped off the driver side valve cover and it also looks quite dry but you can see a little more oil along the bottom edge of the head. Driv_1 thru driv_4. I had my son crank the engine again and no oil flow to be seen.

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I took out the distributor and chucked up an oil pump spinner that I made up. The oil pressure comes up as expected but I didn't get to rotate the crankshaft to line op the holes for oil flow to the rockers, ran out of daylight.

So my plan is to clean the rocker assembly I removed and then all of the passenger lifters. I will then reassemble and re install the rocker assembly.

I also plan to spin the oil pump again and move the crank until I see some oil flow. Then I will do a pressure test.

I would have thought that if there is no oil flow at all to the rocker assembly that the engine simply wouldn't run at all because all of the lifters would collapse. In my case the center lifters were low but the far forward ones and the ones by the firewall weren't, if the oil flow was anemic I would have expected the forward lifter to be compressed since they are higher than the others and less likely to get some of a limited supply of oil.

All the small holes in the rocker shaft seem to be clear, I didn't pul the caps out so I couldn't look into the shaft directly.

I think it's too soon to tell if I have a serious problem until I do the pump spin with the crank in the right place. If I don't get good flow/pressure this means I have a bad cam bearing? I haven't seen any metal come out of the oil drain hole. Should I drop the pan?

Lots of stuff to read, hope you haven't fallen asleep.

Take care,
harry

ps how do you make pics appear inthe post instead of just links?

Last edited by harrywt; 08-20-2013 at 04:38 AM..
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:11 PM   #98
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

After you upload all your pictures click on the paperclip and click insert allName:  2013-08-18 21.09.13-1.jpg
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:09 AM   #99
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Post #16 of thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
Here ya see one pressure gauge connected to the main gallery where the oem oil pressure ending unit is connected. That allows oil pressure at that point to be read when the drill motor is spinnin'.

The second pressure gauge is connected to an "adapter" I fabbed to allow oil pressure/flow to be measured at the critical feed point in the cylinder head simutaneously.
Any special requirements on the gauges? Are theyt made to measure oil pressure?
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:30 PM   #100
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Harry, I absolutely think you should cut to the chase and drop your oil pan. I hate to say it, but I think upon doing so you will find evidence of cam bearing de-lamination in the form of grey sludge similar to what is seen escaping from several of your rocker stand bolts, and quite likely also non-ferrous cam bearing kibble as well. Both your valve trains and top surfaces of your heads are grotesque. Your lifters surfaces look severely dished instead of perfectly smooth as they should be. I hate to be the voice of doom, but I've been down this road before. Of course, I'd be delighted if I was wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:54 AM   #101
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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harry, I absolutely think you should cut to the chase and drop your oil pan. I hate to say it, but I think upon doing so you will find evidence of cam bearing de-lamination in the form of grey sludge similar to what is seen escaping from several of your rocker stand bolts, and quite likely also non-ferrous cam bearing kibble as well. Both your valve trains and top surfaces of your heads are grotesque. Your lifters surfaces look severely dished instead of perfectly smooth as they should be. I hate to be the voice of doom, but I've been down this road before. Of course, I'd be delighted if I was wrong, but I don't think I am.
I've been thinking of just that, one thing though, the gray stuff is nut coming out of the oil gallery, and it's only by the threads, yes there is one incriminating pic of one of the stands with the oil passage clogged with gray gunk but that not the stand at the oil passage. I had thought the gray gunk was never seize, it might have been an attemppt to seal the threads as some of the holes penetrate to the cylinder, right?

I will drop the pan though. Btw, I have cleaned all of the passenger lifters now, about have were frozen completely. They all had bottoms that look like the pics of the one above, no signs of unusual wear unless the even concavity is a problem all by itself...

So in the meantime, I spun up the oil pump again while my son slowly rotated the crank, got good oil flow out of the passenger side passage (no grayness also) this is the side with the rockers removed.

Next we switched to the driver's side, this picture is after I pumped some oil and let it drain, so I call it "before"

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I then spun the pump again and filled the boats

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After I cleaned all of the lifters (I did them one at a time to make sure to keep parts grouped and lifters in correct bores) and rocker parts, I assembled the rockers etc, to the shaft. I noticed some possibly excessive wear on the shaft

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So the big drama is what will I find in the oil pan? That has to wait a couple of days so stay tuned. Can the cam and bearings be replaced with the engine in the truck? I assume heads come off for this?
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:07 AM   #102
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Fyi.
That gray material is common in pre unleaded fuel engines. The gray is most likely a byproduct of running leaded fuel for many years... I see this all of the time in aircraft... In most cases it can be caked in the sludge tubes to unnerving levels.
You're not going to be able to change the cam bearings with the engine in the truck. Sorry. The heads can stay on however verifying oil hole alignment would be easier with them off..
That rocker shaft wear while visible, will probably not cause any issues.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:40 AM   #103
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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fyi.
That gray material is common in pre unleaded fuel engines. The gray is most likely a byproduct of running leaded fuel for many years... I see this all of the time in aircraft... In most cases it can be caked in the sludge tubes to unnerving levels.
You're not going to be able to change the cam bearings with the engine in the truck.
A small ray of optimism, thanks

Quote:
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sorry. The heads can stay on however verifying oil hole alignment would be easier with them off..
That rocker shaft wear while visible, will probably not cause any issues.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:02 AM   #104
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Encouraging that you're getting lube to the top end now. Maybe you'll feel like buying a lotto ticket in a couple days. Fingers crossed.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:54 AM   #105
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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encouraging that you're getting lube to the top end now. Maybe you'll feel like buying a lotto ticket in a couple days. Fingers crossed.
Yes, the "boats" filled quite rapidly. But at the same time, before any dis assembly, I poured oil down onto the lifters and had my son crank the motor with the starter, the lifters seemed to pump up suggesting that they were not getting enough oil. But, I did find at least half of them were frozen when I disassembled individual lifters and cleaned them. So contradictory evidence.

By the way, is oil supposed to pass throughthe hole in the rocker arm by the pushrod and then dribble down the push rod? I careful to clean this hole and the groove in the rockers. Oiil was pouring out onto the exhaust manifold so I didn't run the drill very long.

In any event, oil pan off, asap
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