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Old 01-04-2009, 10:07 AM   #31
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Obviously I've overlooked an update to this thread regarding the "boat"-design rocker arms and their companion rocker shafts, so I'll be posting that soon.
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Let's look at a "boat design" rocker assembly that is mounted to the cylinder head using only five stands and bolts. The springs seen take up the space where formerly the extra four rocker stands were positioned. And this rocker shaft is considerably different in design and execution than the nine stand/welded rocker shaft.

Difference one...this shaft is drilled through for only five mounting bolts.

Difference two...this shaft has no witness marks serving as assembly aids when mounting to the head. This shaft must be mounted so that the oil orifices for the rocker arm contact are down towards the head, otherwise, rocker oiling will be significantly reduced resulting in rapid wear and most likely valves sticking from lack of sufficient lubrication.

Difference three...the boat-design (or "stamped") rockers bear directly on the shaft at only two distinct wear points. Otherwise they are a sloppy fit on the shaft and only held in alignment by the spacers and springs.

All other inspection points apply to this type assembly as well, including removing the end plugs and swabbing out the internals of the shaft. Once that is done and the shaft wear points are measured and suitability for re-use is determined, then new core plugs must be correctly installed in each end.

This shaft was just recently removed from an sv engine by forum member ss2 and his pop, ihgramps. The motor has been parted out. However, this rocker assembly shows that some attention has been paid to oil changes over the years and the actually light varnishing tells me the motor was never significantly overheated. All parts on both of these assemblies are re-useable...so the roth boyz have a rocker assembly credit here at binder university! Much nicer parts than I see on the average!
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Here's a close up of the rear end of the rocker shaft on the passenger side bank. The second stand from the left is now the oiler stand. In actuality, it's in the same position as the third stand from the left onna nine stand assembly...but, the spring has taken the place of the stand that was eliminated due to cost considerations.

You can easily see that there is no bushing in this rocker...in fact, the rocker is forced into contact with the shaft at the load points by the pressure exerted by the push rod/lifter/cam lobe combo and by rocker tip contact with the respective valve stem. Otherwise it's a real sloppy fit on the shaft and is free to "rock" side-to-side due to high rpm "harmonics" that might be present when the motor is over-revved (not a normal condition due to the asthmatic condition of the typical IH sv engine!).
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Here is one pair of rockers (intake and exhaust) that are removed to show the wear points. And the shaft shows the same condition.

Notice the oil groove formed in the rocker when it was stamped originally. That channel aligns with the oil hole in the shaft if the shaft is assembled with oil holes down! The wear points are on either side of the channel.

There is really no effective way to measure the rocker wear in the shop except by visual inspection, there is no "hole to check for roundness or "spec". Also the rocker tip should be inspected for wear at the valve stem interface, and same for the pocket in which the push rod seats. There is an oiler hole in the push rod pocket that must be clear of varnish build-up or sludge so that the push rod tip May lube. The push rods themselves do not carry oil as is found on some chryfordrolet motors.

Use a micrometer or caliper to measure for "roundness/wear" of the shaft bearing surface at each pair of rockers locations.

In this pic, the rocker shaft is upside down so that the wear points May be seen! Do not re-install to the cylinder head like this! Please!!!
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

I read the entire rocker discussion and did not see the setup that is on my 1975 - 304 Scout that we just bought . It has nine stands and bolts and boat type rockers . The whole top end is very clean and looks like it was recently gone thru by a p.o . He also said it was " ticking" when he last ran it "a couple years ago" . I pulled the covers . We started the engine carefully and ran it for a few minutes. Looks ok except for this . Turns out the engine had been sitting for an unknown amount of time with 2 stuck intakes and 2 correspondingly bent push rods . I know this is a common issue . The problem is finding 2 of these push rods . They are ball/ball , approximately 8.9'' long , closed end (and I am beginning to think May not be stock) . None of my usual sources list these pushrods . The rockers/shafts /holes/stands are clean and were on their oil holes correctly . The formerly stuck valves are now free (at least for the moment) . The rocker shafts pressurize correctly. Any thoughts on this situation would be appreciated and if you have any of these pr's consider them sold.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Nine stand rocker assembly with boat rockers, someone's been diddlin' in the sand box before you!

Classic case, there is no telling how these rocker systems May have been butched by the po virus in the past. I've even seen motors that had a mix of boat and welded rockers on the same shaft! No freakin' way that pos can oil!!!!

If it's a true nine stand rocker shaft (not a re-drilled five stand), it should have been flipped upside down so that boat rockers can oil.

We have reconditioned/inspected ball/ball pushrods for 152/266/304 on the shelf here at ihon (we refer to those as the "short" ones!). You won't see those in the online store, you need to call Jeff and order. If he's out-of-stock at his location, he'll call me and I'll drop-ship. I'm looking at a box of about 35 pieces right now!

There are two designs of the boat rocker ball/ball pushrods, depends upon who the vendor to IH was at the time. One type has a distinct "ball" on one end, the other end is a somewhat radiused tip. The other style has two "radiused" tips. Guess I need to update this thread with examples of all four designs, (two long styles and two short styles).

T's certainly possible that someone May have had customs made at some point or simply boneyarded wrong stuff! These oem pushrods do not oil through the center of the tube, the balls have no oil orifice like some other oem motors use. But oil ports would not hurt anything as long as the ball radius is correct along with the length.

When we run out of these reconditioned pushrods, we'll have a batch of new ones made by our manufacturer (not the same source as the oem stuff), that's not an issue though a significant quantity must be ordered all at the same time.

Let's see...you are now the fifth individual I've discussed this same thing (stuck valves due to non-lubrication) with since last Saturday! One was a 152, two are 304, the other two are 345. Only one of the motors had correct parts all the way through (the early 152), and it's issue was simply the rocker shaft was completely plugged closed throughout by sludge.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Hmmm.... My truck has boat rockers and 9 stand shafts.

It currently has 13,300 miles on it, had 10,000 when I bought it in January 2007. I am the second owner and I was told by the original owner, by the fire chief, that no engine work was accomplished on the truck except for tune ups & oil changes, etc.
It is a v-392e / ic & tq carb with a casting date of July 1974, and the truck was built January 1975. The engine serial number on the LST agrees with the serial number stamped in the block.
Engine s/n 1353965

photos attached.
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File Type: jpg Copy of Right cylinder head.jpg (92.9 KB, 464 views)
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Yes the 9 stand shafts with boat style rockers is an oe set up, used in 74-75 model years.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Thanks to all for the info...have ordered 4 from Jeff at ihono . Hope to have the Scout running soon .
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:38 PM   #40
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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Originally Posted by the bucket View Post
Jeff at ihono .
Classic typo!!! IH?........o-no!!! That's what your wifey say's whey you buy your first IH?

luv a good laugh.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:58 PM   #41
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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Originally Posted by the bucket View Post
thanks to all for the info...have ordered 4 from Jeff at ihono . Hope to have the Scout running soon .
Great!

I sorted another set of sixteen ball/ball short pushrods today and worked through several more rotten rocker assemblies to see what I can yard out as far as parts go. Looks like I have one more set of sixteen that will be usable, along with some singles. So those will go south the next time I send a shipment down.

Deep in the pile of rocker assemblies I found another nine stand/boat set. This one has obviously been "recycled" and used at one point with welded rockers, then flopped over and used with boat rockers. And...there is one five stand boat assembly that had one welded rocker on it! The welded rocker is dam near welded to the rocker shaft from lack of oil!
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:21 PM   #42
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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Originally Posted by eric vanburen View Post
yes the 9 stand shafts with boat style rockers is an oe set up, used in 74-75 model years.
Oh....my mistake. After reading all the engine & valve train threads, I was under the impression that the boat style rockers & nine stand rocker shafts were not a stock configuration.

I took some photos when I was replacing the valve cover gaskets last year. Looked at them this week and wondered if something was amiss or ????
I did run the engine with the covers off to verify oil flow & it was good on both sides. All four drains were clear also.

Thanks for the confirmation that it is a correct configuration.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:17 PM   #43
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

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Turns out the engine had been sitting for an unknown amount of time with 2 stuck intakes and 2 correspondingly bent push rods .
I am going to suggest that you completely drain the old putrid fuel and refill with fresh. The old gas will stick intake valves quicker than lick-I-deesplit. I always see the intake valves sticking under your conditions sitting/stinky old gas and bent pushrods.

Now like mm stated non oilers will cause sticking valves also but........ As a precaution the fuel should be changed out. Even residual varnished fuel system internals can pollute the new fuel enough to cause issues and that is why I add a very slight amount of yamaha racing 2 cycle out to the first bit of new gas.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:05 PM   #44
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

Thank you Robert . I am also going to spray a little bit of carb cleaner thru the still sticky intake spring . Hopefully this will drip down the valve stem and start working any varnish/crud off the valve . I will also spray some oil towards the guide before re-start. When manually depressed and then released, #2 intake slowly (2 seconds) returns to the closed position . I am hoping what looks like a recent valve job was done correctly and that the guide is not too tight . All of the valve springs have an internal 2nd dampner spring. Is this a common setup ? I would also be interested in the success rate you guys have had using compressed air thru the plug hole to hold valves closed in order to change a cracked valve retainer on a different valve that I just noticed . I have special tools for this type of job for vw's and porsches that we use in my business but have never tried this on an American engine. Thanks again for your time .
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:05 PM   #45
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Default Re: I-4 and SV Engine Non-Oiling Rocker Assembly

An air hold works just fine on the engines for replacing valve springs, no different than any other ohv motor.

Do not spray/drool any lubricant on the valve stem to "free " it as it will mask what I am convinced is a non-lubricating rocker assembly. I lightly "tap" or bounce on the valve tip with a soft-face hammer, and lets the spring finally seat the valve after the "shock" applied. The re-assemble and run it, if you use your current rocker assembly that was installed when this happened, you can watch it happen again within 15>20 minutes of operation and it's obvious the rocker system that has the stuck valve is not oiling!

I fully understand Robert's experience with valves "stuck" by varnish, but I've never experienced that anomaly regarding one of these engines, the problem is always lack of rocker lubrication for one or more rocker/valve sets.
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