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Old 05-20-2008, 07:09 AM   #1
Michael Mayben
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Default Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Let's use this thread for anything related to the chrysler-supply torqueflite 727 tranny as used in both "d" model fullsize stuff and Scout II.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

First off, we need to be able to identify which tf 727 basic unit we are dealing with. There were three main variations produced, one for all chrysler engine apps, one for amc engines, and of course, the unit used in ihc beginning sometime in the m/y 1972 production run of various platforms.

The first pic shows the amc variation...notice the full "circle" bellhousing, with the starter mounted on the passenger side. Starter location is the most obvious point of identification.

The second pic shows a chrysler engine application, again, full circle bell, but the starter is on the driver side.

Third pic shows a typical ihc tf 727, starter on the passenger side...but bolted to the block...not the transmission bell. And...notice the sheet metal "filler" piece mounted to the bottom of the "cutaway" bell, allowing for attachment of the flex plate/torque converter dust cover.

All tf 727 variations will always have a unique identifying number set stamped (not cast) into the pan rail on the driver side, just below the shift lever location...that is usually a "partial" serial number (earlier vehicles), or vin (later vehicles). That will tie the particular transmission case to it's original oem installation.

The 727 shown in the last pic is a very early tf 727 chrysler app (late 1966), notice the numbers stamped into the pan rail, lower left corner of the shot.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AMC TF 727 Bell.jpg (53.3 KB, 6895 views)
File Type: jpg Chrysler 727 Bell.jpg (84.0 KB, 7032 views)
File Type: jpg IHC 727 Bell.jpg (100.6 KB, 2938 views)
File Type: jpg Chrysler 727 Serial.jpg (115.4 KB, 2807 views)
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

For a the lazy







Attached Images
File Type: jpg AMCTF727Bell.jpg (70.3 KB, 10959 views)
File Type: jpg Chrysler727Bell.jpg (107.7 KB, 10578 views)
File Type: jpg IHC727Bell.jpg (130.6 KB, 12346 views)
File Type: jpg Chrysler727Serial.jpg (149.6 KB, 9659 views)

Last edited by Craig; 06-23-2008 at 07:33 AM..
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thanks for labeling the pics Craig! Wish I knew how to do that stuff! It's all I can do ta just take tha pics!
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Any transmission (manual or auto), transfer case, or axle system must be vented to the atmosphere in some manner.

Vehicles which see street use only can get by with whatever vent system the oem/component manufacturer provided. But in the case of off-road use, those vent systems are entirely inadequate.

In off-road use, the vehicle May see deep water, deep mud (or both at the same time), deep snow, sand, etc. Even worse is when the rig becomes stuck or submerged in any/all the above! At that point, the external contamination can move right through the oem-design vent systems and become entrained inside the power transmission component where it will soon wreak havoc unless a complete removal is performed asap.

Kinda makes sense in those cases to not allow the crap ta get inside in the first place don't it??

Let's look at how we can upgrade the tf 727 tranny vent system, and also it's companion tailshaft/transfer case adapter system inna Scout II "married" 4x4 app.

First we'll look at the 727 vent system...
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ihc made the switch to the tf 727 tranny from the borg warner slushbox for all light line applications sometime in mid-1972 production. Those trannys used what I call an "early" design transmission case vent.

The vent is located on the upper portion of the front pump housing. It consists of a machined passage in the pump casting, which is covered with a sheet metal "baffle" visible from the outside once the torque converter is removed.

Internally, there is a similar baffle mounted which covers the actual vent penetration.

This vent system will allow water inside the tranny if the rig is stalled in a deep water crossing. So we're gonna eliminate it and add a new vent to the tranny case itself, located at the highest point, with a tube run to an even higher location on the vehicle. In order to do a vent relocation the transmission must be torn down, so it's best to do this when accompanied by a complete rebuild.

First the pump is removed from the case, and the oem baffles are also removed and added to your scrap pile of useful bits of sheet metal for some other project.

Next, from the inside of the pump casting, the oem vent hole is drilled and tapped to 1/8" npt, and a brass internal wrenching 1/8" npt plug is inserted permanently. This process seals the oem vent forever as if it never existed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Early Vent Baffle External.jpg (82.2 KB, 1179 views)
File Type: jpg Early Case Vent Baffle Inside.jpg (100.7 KB, 1484 views)
File Type: jpg Tap OEM Pump Vent For Plug.jpg (106.5 KB, 2003 views)
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:56 PM   #7
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Thumbs up slow drive and reverse engage

Ok guys, the 727 in my s2 has been acting funky for awhile now. When cold it was hesitant to go into reverse or low. Warming it up seemed to help but it still acted funky.
Well to make a long story short, adjusting the low reverse band did the trick. After 35 years I guess it was a little out of adjustment.
The procedure is outlined in the cts. The only thing I would recommend is trying to find the fiber type pan gasket at a local transmission rebuilder supply house. The rubber one in the kits from autozone and so on really suck.
After adjusting this one it seems to shift smoother ,quicker and a little firmer. I also did the kickdown band , same procedure just on the outside of the case.
The only question I have is about the procedure for adjusting the kickdown rod , the setup on my Scout is not the same as in the cts. Any help here would be appreciated.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: slow drive and reverse engage

Quote:
Originally Posted by towpainter3 View Post
The only question I have is about the procedure for adjusting the kickdown rod , the setup on my Scout is not the same as in the cts. Any help here would be appreciated.
Some pic's or a description of your set up would help.

The generic method for adjusting any 727 throttle valve linkage is as follows.

#1 make sure the engine is up to temp and the idle speed is where you want it (your supposed to re-adjust any time you change the idle speed screw for more than 25rpm change)

#2 remove the "e" clip that holds the rod to the pivot and disconnect the linkage.

#3 adjust as necessary so that it will slide back on with the rod held against the up/forward stop and the carb linkage held forward against it's stop.

Road test, if you want later shifts make the rod longer, if you want sooner shifts make the rod shorter
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ain't it amazing whatta little "maintenance" will do for stuff brad! Good thang ya handled the bands now instead of waiting for that big ol' bang when ya go to reverse onna cold mornin' and find out it went away in tha middle of the nite! Translate that as "broken low/reverse band" and/or it's companion aka "servo flop"!! Same thuing can/will happen if "fast idle" is engaged onna cold motor with a cold tranny. Let it warm up enuff to come off the highest fast idle point before engaging "d" or "r".

Simple throttle pressure/kickdown adjustment for any non-electronic version offa torqueflite:

1) adjust throttle cable (or rod on some rigs) so that the throttle goes wot completely!! Very important to do that first!

2) adjust the clevis (or cable if the throttle pressure control has been converted to a lokar-type kickdown control) so that at wot (pedal held firmly to the floor), the throttle pressure rod has some slight additional travel down at the tranny lever before going hard against it's internal stop. Ya do not want the throttle pressure lever to ever be held hard against the stop inside, that leads to much wear in the "bushing" area the shaft runs in (part of the valve body), and creates a leak at the "small" seal interface. Give it about 1/16 of an inch of slack/additional travel.

3) if ya do step 2, you should see, when the throttle is closed, a "gap" in the slotted link of maybe 1/4" as the throttle is slowly opened before it picks up the throttle pressure control as the throttle is opened. Then the throttle "butterfly" position is in correct "synch" with the throttle pressure control on the tranny.

All this is predicated on the throttle linkage being in decent shape, the tranny in decent shape, and fairly "stock" size meats. The actual shift points will very somewhat depending upon throttle position vs. Ground speed and engine "load" (based upon the mechanical throttle linkage). Torqueflites never used any form of modulator, vacuum cannister, electric solenoid, etc. As part of the upshift/downshift scenario as did borg warner, hydramatic division, etc. They are very simple slushboxes in actual operation.

The actual shift points are "controlled" by throttle pressure (thus correct adjustment is imperative!) and the action of the governor mounted on the output shaft inside the tailhousing. That is with the tranny in "drive" and not being manually shifted, the so-called "automatic function.

Larger meats than oem will really change shift points, as will axle gear changes, so it's really not possible to use the standard shift "tables" as found in the various service references if yore meats and gears are big!

The "kickdown" linkage onna fullsize witha tf 727 is somewhat different than the same item onna Scout II with 727. But the adjustment procedure is exactly the same. When production of the "set back" motor versions of pickup and t'all phased in in mid-1973, the entire "kickdown" linkage was changed up to accommodate the amc 401/tf727 setup found in some '73, '74, and '75 models. That kickdown linkage is total shit in design and operation!!! The only cure for that...shitcan all of it and use the lokar cable kickdown setup...it's outstanding in design and execution!

You think IH stuff is crapball engineered...try mixin' in rambler crap with their own version offa tf 727!
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
let's use this thread for anything related to the chrysler-supply torqueflite 727 tranny as used in both "d" model fullsize stuff and Scout II.
I have the IH version of the torqueflite 727 in and a Scout II with a 304, I just had the trany rebuilt about 2000 miles ago, but the truck has been sitting for 2 years now. I just now got it back on the road, the first couple of days that I drove it all seemed fine but now it will not up shift into third gear. It shifts into all other gears including reverse, 1st and 2nd find but it will not jump up into the drive gear. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong., and how to fix it?
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Welcome to the ihon forums jonsalter!

I believe what you are experiencing is a fairly common issue concerning vehicles that are not operated for lengthy periods of time. And that does not just include transmissions! Engines are greatly affected as well! Most especially the IH I-4 and sv motors can gobble the cam oem bearings under that type of "non-use".

The 727, like all other automatic transmissions are extremely complicated in their hydraulic circuitry. Very tight tolerances inside the valve body and governor assembly. Depending upon your shop situation, tool situation, and wrenching ability, there are some things you can possibly do yourself to make the tranny play nice again.

First off...do not add any kind of liquid snake oil to this transmission!!!! Please!!! That will fix nothing!

What is the year model of the vehicle in question and is the 727 original to the vin on that rig?? There are some major differences regarding the valve body between the "early" and "late" 727 used in the Scout II platform.

edit: I just found your other thread and see the rig under discussion is m/y '74. Are you sure that the engine/tranny/driveline is original to that vehicle??

Was the tranny shifting properly after the overhaul/re-install (I mean perfect operation??). Who did the install, a pro shop or you? Was it shifting properly when it was last operated and then parked?

Are you absolutely certain that the shifter/shift cable is correctly adjusted?? This is a very tedious operation onna Scout II, especially with an old, rotten cable, and will affect what you are experiencing. Before moving ahead in diagnostics, you must verify correct shifter/cable adjustment and operation through the entire range of motion of the shift lever, that May involve two people to do this, one to operate the lever, another underneath to observe operation.

Have you attempted to adjust/change the throttle pressure control from the carb linkage (the so-called "kickdown")?? If so, did that do anything regarding overall shifting either up or down?

Other than shift cable adjustment/verification, there are most likely two issues affecting what you describe.

A) the 2/3 shift valve is sticking/hanging in the valve body.

B) the governor internal components are sticking/stuck.

Both of these conditions are caused by the "sitting syndrome" in most cases. That is due to internal corrosion (possibly not even visible to the naked eye) of these parts made to extremely precise tolerance and fit. This type corrosion is caused by drainback of the hydraulic fluid and lack of parts movement on a normal basis and is the byproduct of moisture condensation inside the transmission (same thing happens inside an in-op engine).

While it's possible that continued attempts at driving the rig "might" suddenly cause the "stuck" parts to free up and normal operation resume, in the mean time severe internal tranny damage can result also!

So give us some more information and we'll see where to go from here. Both of the conditions that I suspect May be root cause for your problem can be corrected with the tranny installed in the vehicle. But to service the governor mechanism, the transfer case and transfer case adapter (tail housing) must be removed. And the governor assembly itself must be treated as if it's inna "clean room" environment!
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Last edited by Michael Mayben; 12-17-2008 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 12-17-2008, 02:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thank you for the reply. When I got the transmission rebuilt the tranny worked great. I had it rebuilt by a professional shop. My Scout is a 74. I am resonably sure it is the original drive line (so said the people I bought it from) however I will verify the numbers and make sure. I have not checked the the shift cable however I had to pull the shift cable two weeks ago to get at the neutral switch. It shifted fine after I reinstaled it but possible it has sliped or come out of adjustment. Also I had the carb off and rebuilt it so maybe the kick down is out of adjustment as well. I will check both of these this week and see what I come up with. If you have any more suggestions please let me know I will post what I find out later.
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Old 12-17-2008, 03:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Great! That's want we wanna hear...logical progression!

If...the kickdown is held all the way "back" (full line pressure mode), then it would not upshift to 3rd until around 60>70mph depending upon tire size and gearing. Maybe the kickdown linkage needs attention since ya did remove at least part of that when ya diddles the carb.

See this recent post from chris, which also contains some other links to the "kickdown" subject:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...does-work.html
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Michael,

I'd just like to add the fact that the swepco 714-20 atf is a great product to use in those trannies..... In fact you can use it as a replacement for all dexron, most mercon, and all chrysler specifications including the atf+4.

It provides smoother, yet more positive shifting to help reduce heat build up and has a higher additive package than anything else on the market. Transmissions typically run cooler, even without add - on transmission coolers.

I've supplied customers for practically any type of application, including from toyota to cat haul trucks, as well as drag car racing.

Jeff also stocks this item for his customers.

Dick
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Old 11-19-2010, 02:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Mike,

I read through all the posts concerning tf 727 to try to find the answer, but still have the question.
Here is what I got: 72 sii, replaced the Dana 30 with a 44 from a 76 and everything else is stock. Replaced ring gears to 4:10's

you talked about swaping in a 440 out of a motor home and buckling it up to the Dana 20. I am doing the same thing, but with a chrysler 400, with the 727 out of a 78 cordoba. After taking off the 18 1/2 inch 2wd tail shaft, will the 727 bolt up to the old IH 727 tailshaft that is married to the Dana 20. Output shaft issues?
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