IH PARTS AMERICA
Click Here!

Go Back   IH PARTS AMERICA > Tech Forums > Oil Tech
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Photo Gallery IH Store Home

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #16
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member Number: 207
Posts: 268
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Steve,

as I mentioned in that post, I do not know how much zddp was in the api se formulas....and again, it would depend on the blender of the oil as to how much additive they would use for their particular formulation of same. Also, since there are different quality grades of just about any additive, it really is a crap shoot to try to replicate anything without being a chemist.
I am a little skeptical about the statement that there was more zddp in se oils than there were in sl oils, but I have no proof other than in every case up until the time that the specification changed from sl to sm, the oils actually improved in quality. It was when sm came along that we saw the lower maximum levels of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) put in place because of the concern that zinc, primarily would harm and possible "take out" the catalytic converters. The epa wanted to have a minimum of 120,000 miles of life for the cats, but in all honesty cats can be damaged by things other than oil additives, and I personally know of cases were cats went many times that distance with no apparent problems.

Swepco does not recommend using any oil additives in their engine oil formulas....period. So, with that being said, you can take their position that changing the chemistry by adding zddp, stp, or any other additive can effect the quality of the oil which already has enough of everything in it, most times reducing it. If you can remember the old saying "enough is enough, already!" or "too much of a good thing is harmful."

let me assure you that 306 has a very good reputation for giving protection to engines, the zddp additive levels are higher than most so-called specialized racing oils, but to go along with that, it has a completely balanced package which work synergistically together.

Mixing weights, even with the same brand of oils is not recommended by swepco, or for that matter any other lubricant blender that I know of. It isn't just a simple mathematic equation such as the article you read suggests that will make a new, better blend. The best way to select the proper weight for your vehicle is to see what the ambient temperature range is that you need to cover and settle for a multi-weight viscosity oil to suit that range. Doing so would also eliminate seasonal oil changes.

Lubricant chemistry is very complex, and the saying that I once believed in before my 28 year career with swepco used to be "oil is oil, grease is grease" was changed to quite the opposite after less than an hour in the training school I attended in 1985. From then on, I'll go along with the company motto: "swepco lubricants, solutions to keep it running!"

hopefully this answers the questions you had, and will also at the same time be of some positive benefit to others reading this blog.

Dick
DF Sales&Marketing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 01:47 AM   #17
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swepco View Post
steve,

... The zddp additive levels are higher than most so-called specialized racing oils ...

Dick
Hi,
there is really only one last thing I need clarification on. If you had said that the zddp levels were higher than most all other oils presently specified to be used in vintage cars and heavy diesel trucks, then I would have considered the case closed. But by specifying racing oils, I want to make sure we're on the same page. My truck is a slow, low rpm, low oil pressure engine in a heavy crew cab 4x4. It's not a racing application and I would never be considering racing oils in the first place. So how does 306 compare to other oils used in vintage car and truck non-racing applications? And how does it compare to the oils used in heavy diesel truck and equipment applications? Or do they use the same 306 oil specification?

I ask this based on the following:
I don't know much about oils, but for the past few months I've been studying the heck out of oil filters and filtration. And I'm about to put a long, detailed post on this forum about all I've learned. And one of the things I've learned is that some of the very best possible oil filters we can put on our gas engines, far superior to the usual 51515 or 51452 filters, and some of the worst possible oil filters (for our engines) we could ever put on our gas engines were all originally designed for diesel engines. It just depends on the design of the filter. I'm wondering if the same could be said about oils - do vintage heavy truck and equipment diesel engines use the same 306 oil specification, or do they use some superior oil that holds up even better and consequently might be better for our vintage engines than car, especially racing car oil, or do diesels use some completely incompatible oil?

Sorry for the dumb questions, but I've never owned a heavy big rig diesel truck. I think I know the answers, but would like these points absolutely clarified.
Thank you.
Steve

Last edited by overdrivesteve; 03-18-2013 at 02:11 AM..
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 08:14 AM   #18
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member Number: 207
Posts: 268
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Steve,

sorry for the confusion, I thought you were looking for "inventing" a way for getting more zddp into an engine oil and the reference I used for "racing oil" was in response to what I thought you were looking for because that is what the current crop of "racing" oils zero in on. Don't apologize for asking questions, that is the best way to learn.

So, with that being said, and to avoid any further confusion, 306 contains more zddp than most racing oils. 306 also contains more zddp for oils up to and including the api "sl" as well as the diesel "ci-4" specifications. However, (as mentioned several times) it contains too much zinc to meet the specifications for both gasoline (sm & now sn) and diesel (cj-4), so it is not recommended for use in those engines which require those api grades.

I have several independent auto repair shops who purchased product other than engine oil, they discovered that when the le (low emission) api cj-4 diesel oils came on the scene that they were getting an unusual amount of lifter noise, even when using it in gasoline engines; the solution was to use the 306, which eliminated the noise back to normal. If you go back and read greg r's post you can see that after he switched to 306 in his scouts, it quieted them down nicely....that is a common remark from people who have not used 306 before.

When the sl/ci-4 specifications were in effect for equipment previous to 2007, 306 met the requirements for both gas and hd diesel requirements, however, as previously stated, the sm(sn)/cj-4 oils have different specifications concerning zddp limits and so for that reason they cannot be met with one formulation. Swepco makes two different oils to meet the new specifications, the "303" for gasoline service and the "308" for diesel service. According to the api specs the sm(sn) gasoline service rating has an approx. Max of 800 ppm limit and the cj-4 specs have an approx. Max of 1200 ppm.

The 306 we have been discussing in this thread is the company's recommendation for passenger car, as well as diesel specifications for equipment requiring sl (or earlier) gasoline specification and ci-4 (or earlier) for diesel specification. It is truly "backwards compatible" for older equipment, and it is a wise choice for historic car applications. I have several nascar historic cars which use 306 for that same reason (I know, there I go mentioning racing again!). Others, including myself use the 306 in older applications with great success in both gasoline and diesel applications.

I am not sure what other oil companies are supplying for historic car use, so I cannot comment on that, or the amount of zddp (zinc & phosphorous) there is in their formulas. If you can go to their websites and look for the percentage of those chemicals, you might possible be able to find what you are looking for, and to help you along with reading their specs, it will state, for example 10%, which would equate to 1,000ppm.

Capich?

Dick
DF Sales&Marketing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 10:37 AM   #19
IceFyre13th
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Member Number: 3420
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 82
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

In a nut shell, yes I do know oils.....many years of drag racing and having a sponsor who is a big name In racing oils who taught us the product we represented helped.....we had to know what we were talking about to be effective representatives of the product.

I do not recommend racing oil for daily driving, it will probably have the level of zddp you need, but it is designed for use in racing and will not hold up for 1000's of miles as will oils designed for daily driving use. Many of the additives needed in daily driving are reduced or eliminated as most race engines will have the oil drained and changed every event.

If you change your oil every outing in your vehicle......you could use racing oil, but I would not recommend using it for more than a thousand miles between changes. It was not designed for daily use.

Current api oils do not have the level of zddp a flat Lifter cam and none Roller rocker needs. If you have roller lifters and rockers you will be fine with today's api oils. That is one of the reasons most new vehicles are using roller valve trains, as well as reduced friction for better gas mileage.

Most oil companies that sell current api specification oils will also sell oils that have higher levels of zddp, these higher level zddp oils will void the warranty of your emission system (catalytic convertor) if used in newer vehicles.

If you can find higher level zddp oil use it, 1200 ppm was the se spec, but you will be fine at 1000 ppm too. 800 ppm is the level sf dropped to, this could be to low of a level depending upon the spring pressure or rocker arm ratio the valves have.

If all you can find is today's api oil (anything newer than se), then use that with a zddp additive.
IceFyre13th is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 05:26 AM   #20
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

The last couple posts have cleared up a lot of questions.

Another unrelated question, how long can an oil last between changes, especially with a 9 quart oil pan, if only a large, very high quality synthetic filter is used, and that filter is changed often enough that the by-pass valve never opens allowing the passage of any unfiltered dirty oil? Any guesstimates possible with this type of question? In other words what are your recommended oil change intervals with 306 with this type of engine oil pan and filter set-up?

Thanks.
Steve
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 07:57 AM   #21
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member Number: 207
Posts: 268
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Steve,

the recommended change interval would depend on the type of driving you do. The minimum would probably be around 5,000 miles for city driving and it can go up from there. I change the oil on my wife's car at 5,000 miles because she doesn't do any highway driving (except when I drive it sometimes), and in my trailblazer 5.3 liter every 10,000 miles. 306 has a high detergency in it's additive package, so if you switch over to it, and notice that your oil consumption is going up, it is an indication that it is cleaning out the sludge and varnish in the engine, especially around the rings. Once they re-seat, which could take as many as 3 normal oil changes, it should go back to where it was, and most often than not, actually be lower than what it was before.

Have a great day!

Dick
DF Sales&Marketing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2013, 01:15 AM   #22
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swepco View Post
steve,

the recommended change interval would depend on the type of driving you do. The minimum would probably be around 5,000 miles for city driving and it can go up from there. I change the oil on my wife's car at 5,000 miles because she doesn't do any highway driving (except when I drive it sometimes), and in my trailblazer 5.3 liter every 10,000 miles. 306 has a high detergency in it's additive package, so if you switch over to it, and notice that your oil consumption is going up, it is an indication that it is cleaning out the sludge and varnish in the engine, especially around the rings. Once they re-seat, which could take as many as 3 normal oil changes, it should go back to where it was, and most often than not, actually be lower than what it was before.

Have a great day!

Dick
Wow, wasn't expecting that response. Never before had a vehicle I could go more than 3 to 4000 miles before the oil looked so very dirty I wanted to change it. But then again I always used cheap oil and fram filters.

But now another question. I had a bottle of 502 engine oil improver I bought about 2 months ago when I first got possession of my truck. I was debating if I wanted to return it and get the regular 306 oil or just use it. Decided regardless of my next oil change, to just dump it in the oil that's presently in the engine today. But now wondering - did this have a shelf life? And does 306 have a recommended shelf life? I ask because I didn't think to shake it. It doesn't say to shake it in the directions. But after pouring the 502 into the engine it looked like there was a fine layer of gray sludge in the bottom of the 502 bottle. And if this additive that settled out was thick enough to see, then wouldn't it be thick enough to be filtered out by any good oil filter?

So will 306 oil also separate in the engine's oil pan if it sits for weeks or months between engine starts? My truck is not a daily driver. And until I finish working on it, there will be long stretches of time when it is not started at all.

Thanks.
Steve
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2013, 08:29 AM   #23
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member Number: 207
Posts: 268
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Hi again steve,

it would seem that some of the micronized moly might have fallen out of suspension and the "residue" you saw in the bottle was what it is. If you want to pour a little of your other oil into the bottle and shake it vigorously, it might suspend into the oil, then you can add it to the crankcase. Usually when this happens it is very miniscule and does not mean that the product has deteriorated. I don't know why the instructions do not state to shake before using.

Actually, you did a good thing if you plan on changing over to 306 later because the detergency factor in the 502 will give it a head start on cleaning the sludge and varnish (if there is any). The 502 additive package will not be filtered out of the oil. If you are using a very low micron filter, such as a "0" micron filter additives May be filtered out of any oil. During production, we use a 10 micron filter, I'm told that most other oil producers use a 40 micron filter.

For clarification purposes, the 306 engine oil formulation is completely different than that of the 502. Nothing will settle out of suspension in the 306. "502" is not part of the additive package of "306."

shelf life can vary on products, but a very safe estimate would be 5 years on lubrication products. There was a long "back & forth" on this subject several posts back that you might want to pull up. Other companies have stated that there is "no shelf life" others have said "10 years," and I have no information about who is right or wrong....swepco is very conservative and that is the only reason for having anything said about shelf life at all.

Until next time???
Dick
DF Sales&Marketing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2013, 03:46 PM   #24
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Hi,
ok, I guess in reality then shelf life doesn't matter to me if it's more than a year.

The spin-on oil filter I use is an oversized full-flow synthetic media filter. It has a 5 micron nominal and 20 micron absolute filtration media. I hope that's ok with the 306 oil?

Any idea what happens to old gear oil? Hopefully it doesn't turn into acid. About 35 years ago I acquired a small 3-speed auxiliary transmission (hence my name, overdrivesteve). It is new, with zero miles of use. I knew it would be awhile before I got around to using it. (but never thought it would be 35). So at the time to preserve it internally, I filled it almost completely full of new gear oil before storage. Don't know if that was the best thing to do, but I was young, and it's done. I plan to eventually install this auxiliary between my trans and transfer case in my truck. Assuming the oil is still liquid and not syrup or solidified, anything special (other than change the oil) I should do to this auxiliary gear box before I put it into service? It has been indoors all this time.
Thanks.
Steve

Last edited by overdrivesteve; 03-20-2013 at 04:06 PM..
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2013, 04:20 PM   #25
DF Sales&Marketing
Oil Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Member Number: 207
Posts: 268
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Steve,

wow, holding on to that gearbox for 35 years is amazing!

You probably did alright by filling it with gear oil, however even gear oils can age, and depending on the quality can certainly oxidize, especially if you were not able to completely seal off all areas where air can enter.

Suggest that you make a close inspection, especially around the areas where the surface of the oil meets the metal, this would include gears and bearings. You May not be able to do that, but if you can, you can check for any oxidation residue or pitting. If that looks ok, then it would probably be a good idea to flush it out with a commercial product and inspect it again, maybe a little closer if possible.

Gear oil does not contain detergent additives, contrary to what a lot of people might think. The main additives in gear oil are ep (extreme pressure), some have anti-wear and some have limited slip additives as well. In your case, it probably would not have made any difference as to the weight oil you put in 35 years ago.

The filter you mentioned should be just fine with the 306 engine oil.

I'm just wondering what your next question will be......

Dick
DF Sales&Marketing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:04 PM   #26
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Hi,

well, you don't need to wonder any longer... ;-)
here's my next set of questions. First, can engine oils turn acidic over time if not used much?

I'm just starting to research coolant filters and other anti-freeze related issues. And one of the first things I noticed is that many cooling system filters come with an impregnated slow-release chemical to combat acid corrosion.

So my question is not about oil in the bottle, but oil in the engine that might not get more than a few minutes of running engine use every few weeks or so while the truck is undergoing restoration work. So is it possible for the oil to turn bad or acidic before it appears dirty? And can that acidic level be tested with ph papers? And what should be the ph reading or range of ph for 306 oil?

Also, as there are long times between starting the engine, how long will the film of oil remain on the cam shaft etc so I'm not starting the engine dry? And a related question, how often must I start the engine to keep parts and seals good?

And what are your recommendations on an engine pre-luber - is it recommended, and if so, at what interval between engine starts does it become recommended? And if recommended, do you favor the canister types where the engine pressurizes / fills a canister with oil that is released immediately before the next engine start, or the small 12 volt electric motor type?
And doesn't a pre-luber momentarily pressurize the "wrong" side of the engine where the sudden burst of oil pressure will be also applying oil pressure to the wrong side of the oil filter, causing it to back-flush whatever crud its caught back into the engine's oil pump and possibly oil pan? Or do the benefits of pre-lubbing outweigh the potential damage it could be doing to the engine's oil pump?

Anyone here have any experience with any pre-luber?

Thanks.

Steve

Last edited by overdrivesteve; 04-12-2013 at 01:26 PM..
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:16 PM   #27
jeff campbell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 39
Location: lima,ohio
Posts: 1,060
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

On pre lubing engine after it sits a while,unplug coil ,an then spin it over a few times till the oil pressure comes up,then plug coil back in an start it ? Jeff
jeff campbell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:42 PM   #28
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff campbell View Post
on pre lubing engine after it sits a while,unplug coil ,an then spin it over a few times till the oil pressure comes up,then plug coil back in an start it ? Jeff
How long would an engine sit before you recommend doing this as opposed to just starting it?

Steve
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #29
jeff campbell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Member Number: 39
Location: lima,ohio
Posts: 1,060
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
jeff campbell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #30
overdrivesteve
Senior Member
 
overdrivesteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Member Number: 5094
Location: Alturas, CA
Posts: 370
Default Re: ZDDP/zinc additives for newer motor oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff campbell View Post
prolly 6 month's ? 4 ? It's just your preference ? If you let it sit for 2 month's,an get in an hit the key,it's not gonna start up rite away anyway's,gas will drain back,so if the gauge goes up before it fires,then you'd be ok ,... Jeff
Ok, thanks.
In the past I've always used a shot of starting fluid to save the starter motor... Perhaps not a good idea? But now it starts on the first revolution if it sits 2 weeks or less. And as I get more things done on the truck, I am beginning to start it more often. But it will sit awhile again when I start repair on the less critical things, such as the leaky fuel pump, 40 year old front motor mounts, double fan belt conversion, etc.

Steve
overdrivesteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:50 AM.