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Old 05-29-2010, 07:40 AM   #16
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleandhisih View Post
this interests me a great deal - and I don't mean to hijack a thread that's basically over, but I'm just wondering what these engine analyzers can produce in the form of valuable information. I've been looking them up for the past hour now, and I can remember hearing old timers talk about scoping a motor before -and I could also use an oscilloscope for vac tube amplifier work.

How much can one expect to get a very basic one for, and what exactly will this type of analyzer tell you?
The engine analyzer industry reached it's zenith around 1990. That is when the use of a pc-based system became mandatory in any shop, whether dealership or independent in order to be able to work with the electronic fuel and ignition delivery systems on vehicles of that era. For a couple of years,during that time, I worked for allen testproducts who were the leaders in that bizz, selling and training on their products.

The "cams" machine that was forced into all GM dealerships in that era (produced and supported by eds) was only of use on GM products and thus was useless for work on any other vehicle.

Since then (and with the advent of obdii in '95/'96) the handheld "scan" tool industry has exploded which is the norm in shops today. However with few exceptions, the handheld units do not have actual engine mechanical diagnostic capability as provided by the use of a scope.

All this leads up to the total obsolescence of the older units in typical shops, even though folks kept 'em around to use on vehicles for which they were more suited. Most of 'em got rolled into the storeroom where they have set forever at this point. After about 1985, most shops never saw any oldskool vehicles to work on and as the industry had shifted to electronic engine management in it's crudest form...and that is when the real shitstorm hit the automotive service industry!

Several years ago, a market for this stuff emerged as a companion for the folks equipping their home shops with vintage tools and test gear. The sun versions of the analog stuff that pre-dates the use of the scope is especially popular now, since most of us old farts grew up gittin' skooled on that stuff and using it to make a living. Collecting oldskool instrumentation is just as popular now as collectin' the cars and trucks! Kinda like toob amplifiers and vintage sound equipment!

By far the most useful item in the analyzer console is the scope and it's ability to be fairly quickly connected into the engine system. And that is what makes those units perfect for use in home shops today in working with this ihc-produced junk. While the earlier units will trigger only from a breaker point system, as they evolved along with engine technology, they were redesigned so that they could be used with most all of the electronic ignition systems on the market of that era as long as the proper test lead adapters were incorporated.

Of the two peerless units I have in the shop, the oldest one will trigger from most electronic distributors including the gold box and the pertronix conversion which are hall effect systems. But it can't be used with a capacitive discharge system as provided by the msd/accel/mallory/crane/etc. Add-on boxes.

The later model peerless will trigger and also includes a pickup used on delco hei coil-in-cap systems that were popular back in the day.

Sun electric, allen testproducts, and bear/otc dominated the analyzer industry back then. Allen was the leader in developing the pc-based analyzer (the infamous "smartscope") that required incessant software updates by subscription. We made our money off the lease of these machines and the mandatory software updates.

The stuff like marquette, peerless, alltest, etc. Was marketed through auto parts jobbers and independent tool distributors and was somewhat lower in initial purchase cost and also did not have diagnostic capability that would interface with the first and second generation of electronic engine management crap intro'd in the mid-'80's.

The unique characteristic of the peerless stuff like I have is the ability for each instrument unit to be separated and used stand-alone, including the scope. The entire system is 12vdc-powered and can be connected to an engine, the instrument placed in the passenger compartment, and then the stuff used while the rig is going down the road,...even the exhaust gas analyzer!

All automotive training textbooks were written with extensive sections dealing with the use of the these machines, the basic interpretation of an inductive ignition system scope pattern set is common to any gasoline/spark engine. Many textbooks were written that were used solely for in depth analysis of all the instrumentation used in the typical shop, those books are found in used book stores everywhere, I collect 'em!

Also, both sun and allen were heavily involved in marketing training for pro mechanics. Allen was by far the leader in training regarding analyzer integration and electronic engine management diagnostics and became much more highly regarded in that respect in the later years as sun struggled through bankruptcy and then acquisition by snap-on.

So...any of the analog instruments that actually still work that were produced between about '60 and '80 would be great units for what you might like to learn about! I go through stages of using my stuff, simply depends upon the work at hand at the time. I always use the scope when ejumakatin' these kidz that come to binder u. Initially if that is what they are interested in. Once you see an ignition system in actual operation on the screen, it's real ez to get the big picture.

And if the machine is a full-featured unit, the ability to dynamically read compression, kill cylinders, etc. Is a tremendous tool in diagnostic work, as well as confirming repair work.
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
the engine analyzer industry reached it's zenith around 1990. That is when the use of a pc-based system became mandatory in any shop, whether dealership or independent in order to be able to work with the electronic fuel and ignition delivery systems on vehicles of that era. For a couple of years,during that time, I worked for allen testproducts who were the leaders in that bizz, selling and training on their products.

The "cams" machine that was forced into all GM dealerships in that era (produced and supported by eds) was only of use on GM products and thus was useless for work on any other vehicle.

Since then (and with the advent of obdii in '95/'96) the handheld "scan" tool industry has exploded which is the norm in shops today. However with few exceptions, the handheld units do not have actual engine mechanical diagnostic capability as provided by the use of a scope.

All this leads up to the total obsolescence of the older units in typical shops, even though folks kept 'em around to use on vehicles for which they were more suited. Most of 'em got rolled into the storeroom where they have set forever at this point. After about 1985, most shops never saw any oldskool vehicles to work on and as the industry had shifted to electronic engine management in it's crudest form...and that is when the real shitstorm hit the automotive service industry!

Several years ago, a market for this stuff emerged as a companion for the folks equipping their home shops with vintage tools and test gear. The sun versions of the analog stuff that pre-dates the use of the scope is especially popular now, since most of us old farts grew up gittin' skooled on that stuff and using it to make a living. Collecting oldskool instrumentation is just as popular now as collectin' the cars and trucks! Kinda like toob amplifiers and vintage sound equipment!

By far the most useful item in the analyzer console is the scope and it's ability to be fairly quickly connected into the engine system. And that is what makes those units perfect for use in home shops today in working with this ihc-produced junk. While the earlier units will trigger only from a breaker point system, as they evolved along with engine technology, they were redesigned so that they could be used with most all of the electronic ignition systems on the market of that era as long as the proper test lead adapters were incorporated.

Of the two peerless units I have in the shop, the oldest one will trigger from most electronic distributors including the gold box and the pertronix conversion which are hall effect systems. But it can't be used with a capacitive discharge system as provided by the msd/accel/mallory/crane/etc. Add-on boxes.

The later model peerless will trigger and also includes a pickup used on delco hei coil-in-cap systems that were popular back in the day.

Sun electric, allen testproducts, and bear/otc dominated the analyzer industry back then. Allen was the leader in developing the pc-based analyzer (the infamous "smartscope") that required incessant software updates by subscription. We made our money off the lease of these machines and the mandatory software updates.

The stuff like marquette, peerless, alltest, etc. Was marketed through auto parts jobbers and independent tool distributors and was somewhat lower in initial purchase cost and also did not have diagnostic capability that would interface with the first and second generation of electronic engine management crap intro'd in the mid-'80's.

The unique characteristic of the peerless stuff like I have is the ability for each instrument unit to be separated and used stand-alone, including the scope. The entire system is 12vdc-powered and can be connected to an engine, the instrument placed in the passenger compartment, and then the stuff used while the rig is going down the road,...even the exhaust gas analyzer!

All automotive training textbooks were written with extensive sections dealing with the use of the these machines, the basic interpretation of an inductive ignition system scope pattern set is common to any gasoline/spark engine. Many textbooks were written that were used solely for in depth analysis of all the instrumentation used in the typical shop, those books are found in used book stores everywhere, I collect 'em!

Also, both sun and allen were heavily involved in marketing training for pro mechanics. Allen was by far the leader in training regarding analyzer integration and electronic engine management diagnostics and became much more highly regarded in that respect in the later years as sun struggled through bankruptcy and then acquisition by snap-on.

So...any of the analog instruments that actually still work that were produced between about '60 and '80 would be great units for what you might like to learn about! I go through stages of using my stuff, simply depends upon the work at hand at the time. I always use the scope when ejumakatin' these kidz that come to binder u. Initially if that is what they are interested in. Once you see an ignition system in actual operation on the screen, it's real ez to get the big picture.

And if the machine is a full-featured unit, the ability to dynamically read compression, kill cylinders, etc. Is a tremendous tool in diagnostic work, as well as confirming repair work.
Mike, read the thread very interesting and informative. Thanks. I am looking at an atlas engine analyzer on craigs list:

engine analyzer

Can u tell me anthing about this manufacturere and model.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Ron
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:35 AM   #18
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

Interesting unit ron!

I'm not familiar with that atlas machine. But here is what I "think" it is....

The "atlas" tradename was held by the old consortium of humble/esso/enco/exxon oil company. When I say consortium, that is because there was a relationship between between humble and chevron (and subsidiaries) back in those days where they each accepted the other's credit cards and used a common distribution system for all products sold through their stations. That included every small part ever marketed in a service station, excellent tires, batteries, etc., tools, shop supplies/equipment, even furniture, paper goods, etc. Everything to took to equip and operate a full service location the kicker to that was...the dealer's "account". That meant ez-credit for all dealer purchases which were paid for through the exchange of credit card transactions each time a wholesale fuel delivery was made.

So humble/chevron in turn made "private label" deals with every supplier imaginable for anything used in a typical service station.

Wish those Craig's pics were better, I could tell more about this machine. Again, I "think" it is actually a peerless unit produced in the late 70's based upon the graphics and font style on the analog instruments. That is much more of a "pro" level machine than the peerless units I have though it's not portable in that it can be used with a vehicle when actually driving.

Those were sold with the main unit that could be set on an existing bench/cart, or hung from an overhead trolley. The base cabinet was an option to provide portability in the shop.

I think I have a typical hei-style "adapter" in a tub full of analyzer accesories, etc. That actually snapped down over the hei coil (it's a strange type of inductive pickup) mounted on top of the distributor cap so there was no other way of connecting pickups to the hei ignition system.

Iirc, hei was beginning to be introduced as an oem system in model year 1973, prior to that another type of "electronic ignition" (magpulse) using a mag trigger was an option on selected GM vehicles. So if that machine was originally equipped with an hei pickup, then it had to have been marketed sometime after that. And by 1981 or so, those machines were moving into the "computerized" age and were taken out of production by all the equipment manufacturers.

I don't see any price associated with that ad, so I'm assuming this machine is "free"??? If so, jump on it!

Thanks for posting this, I really enjoy looking at and discussing this old stuff!
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

From what u can see will it work on a 66 corvette with an after market pertronix electronic ignition in place of the points (has distributor and coil)?

Thanks.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

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Originally Posted by rwerth7 View Post
from what u can see will it work on a 66 corvette with an after market pertronix electronic ignition in place of the points (has distributor and coil)?

Thanks.
If that analyzer actually operates, it would be absolutely perfect for your 'vette motor or any other package from that era!

A pertronix conversion for any distributor is a "hall effect" technology. The actual electronic component is the same for any distributor application, no matter what "brand".

And yes, a pertronix will trigger any of these analyzers. But...they won't read a capacitive discharge system triggered by a pertronix or points. That would be something like the mallory/msd/crane/accel "six" series boxes.

Even an engine equipped with the delco hei electronic ignition which came later on the 'vettes will read of course as we previously mentioned. An hei system is an inductive system and bears no relationship to a capacitive discharge system.

With a pertronix conversion in the distributor, your "firing line" pattern on the scope (primary ignition pattern) will still display a dwell reading just like breaker points. That is because the actual "dwell" is a function of the air gap between the magnet wheel and the pickup on the pertronix. Assuming you are using the traditional delco distributor that was oem on the 'vette (and all GM products of that era), that distance had to have been "adjusted" when the pertronix conversion was installed. And the actual dwell you see displayed on the scope will be the same as what it was with breaker points only it will display as a very accurate "trigger signal" instead of the somewhat wavering signal provide by the points/condenser which is an electro-mechanical device and not nearly as accurate.

A pertronix dwell will also display correctly on any analog "stand-alone" dwell meter.

I'm attaching a basic scope pattern interpretation of the primary signal for you, this is from a college-level textbook that I used when I was teaching this stuff years ago.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

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Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
if that analyzer actually operates, it would be absolutely perfect for your 'vette motor or any other package from that era!

A pertronix conversion for any distributor is a "hall effect" technology. The actual electronic component is the same for any distributor application, no matter what "brand".

And yes, a pertronix will trigger any of these analyzers. But...they won't read a capacitive discharge system triggered by a pertronix or points. That would be something like the mallory/msd/crane/accel "six" series boxes.

Even an engine equipped with the delco hei electronic ignition which came later on the 'vettes will read of course as we previously mentioned. An hei system is an inductive system and bears no relationship to a capacitive discharge system.

With a pertronix conversion in the distributor, your "firing line" pattern on the scope (primary ignition pattern) will still display a dwell reading just like breaker points. That is because the actual "dwell" is a function of the air gap between the magnet wheel and the pickup on the pertronix. Assuming you are using the traditional delco distributor that was oem on the 'vette (and all GM products of that era), that distance had to have been "adjusted" when the pertronix conversion was installed. And the actual dwell you see displayed on the scope will be the same as what it was with breaker points only it will display as a very accurate "trigger signal" instead of the somewhat wavering signal provide by the points/condenser which is an electro-mechanical device and not nearly as accurate.

A pertronix dwell will also display correctly on any analog "stand-alone" dwell meter.

I'm attaching a basic scope pattern interpretation of the primary signal for you, this is from a college-level textbook that I used when I was teaching this stuff years ago.
Can u suggest a title of an old book I should read to get me up to speed on using a scope?

Some people have suggested to only get an analyzer that has a gas sniffer. How critical is that for a 66 era car?

Again, thanks for all the info.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

For many years, I taught from a college-level text..."automotive mechanics" (any edition after 1960), by william crouse. I was fortunate to have known mr. Crouse, one of the foremost automotive authorities and automotive engineers of his time. And as a field service engineer, I was assigned to his nephew (who was like a son to him) who was a design engineer for my former employer, a world class manufacturer/supplier of mobile and transport hvac systems, diesel fuel injection, and vehicle electronics. That is my go-to reference for all things automotive-related, I buy copies in used book stores any time I can find 'em and give away as gifts to those that need an education regarding old iron. The first edition of that volume was published in 1946 and updated about every three years as the technology emerged post-wwii.

Another excellent reference I just acquired is the sun electric training text that was used in all their training courses back in the day when they were one of the two leaders in the automotive diagnosis and testing equipment industry (the other was allen testproducts). That would be: "automotive testing and diagnosis, second edition". This one was published in '77 and is considered one of the best "primers" in regards to engine analyzer use, automotive systems theory, and working with emissions systems that were current at that point in time.

I use both of these publications nearly every day ion my work with various vehicles and systems.

Back when the analyzers that you are looking at (and I have in my shop) were current, an exhaust gas analyzer was an "add-on" unit and just coming into vogue due to the need to monitor first and second tier emissions systems which professional mechanics were struggling with due to the lack of adequate training provided by the oem and aftermarket in that regard. Those were the forerunner of today's emissions analyzers (which current design level require to be a five-gas machine). Typical additional cost of a two gas analyzer add-on module was $400>$900 plus the cost of maintenance supplies. That machine you are looking at would have sold to the trade at a price point of around $2300 in 1975 dollars.

The early gas analyzers measured only the air/fuel ratio (an excellent tuning aid for working with all those older high performance stuff!!!). Next came the sniffers which would read co and hc, those are typical of the machine I have which again, I use quite often in dialing in carburetors for performance applications.

A much more modern, infrared "four gas" or "five gas" machine has no use on the older equipment, those are full-bore emissions testing units. They are very expensive to maintain, update the software, and constantly have to "calibrate" using a very expensive compressed gas mixture.

So...is a gas analyzer imperative? Not by a long shot! It's certainly "nice" to have (especially one that actually works!, they can be very much a hassle to keep operational). But the majority of all the work done with an engine analyzer involves looking at ignition and charging system diagnosis, engine tuning, and verification of repairs.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:58 PM   #23
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Thanks for all the info. I hope to pick up the analyzer tomorrow if the snow melts (seattle).

Have a happy thanksgiving.
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Old 11-25-2010, 02:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

I'm anxious to actually see what ya get!

I just got home from picking my wife up from her seattle flight today. She got stuck there last nite when her commuter flights were canceled outta lewiston, id.

But she just put the turkey in the oven and crashed in the recliner, so the important stuff is done!

Turkeeday back atcha!
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:29 PM   #25
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Seller has stopped returning my phone calls so I assume he changed his mind about giving it away for free. I'll start looking for another one.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:19 PM   #26
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Got hold of the seller tonight. He is holding the analyzer for me.
I'll pick it up this weekend. Is there any tests that I can do when I pick it up to see if it works without hooking it up to my 66. I'm picking it up with my 07 fj cruiser.
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #27
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Bump
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:58 PM   #28
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

Plug it in and turn it on!

It will take awhile for the scope to warm up, but without hooking up the test probes, you should see a blip start crawling across the screen or at least a solid line appear that you can focus and play with. You can't hurt it.

The volt meter and ammeter are just that, they can be used to read any dc source.

Normally, the needles on the analog instruments can be "zero'd" without turning anything on, just adjust the tiny screw at the bottom of the instrument face. Any other calibration/zeroing takes place after hookups are made and the entire unit has warmed up, it's not solid state so it takes quite a bit of time for the instruments to stabilize.

No doubt all the switches are going to have dirty/oxidized contacts internally. So switching everything without starting the unit will help clean 'em, but expect the switches to be somewhat intermittent until the unit has been used some.
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

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plug it in and turn it on!

It will take awhile for the scope to warm up, but without hooking up the test probes, you should see a blip start crawling across the screen or at least a solid line appear that you can focus and play with. You can't hurt it.

The volt meter and ammeter are just that, they can be used to read any dc source.

Normally, the needles on the analog instruments can be "zero'd" without turning anything on, just adjust the tiny screw at the bottom of the instrument face. Any other calibration/zeroing takes place after hookups are made and the entire unit has warmed up, it's not solid state so it takes quite a bit of time for the instruments to stabilize.

No doubt all the switches are going to have dirty/oxidized contacts internally. So switching everything without starting the unit will help clean 'em, but expect the switches to be somewhat intermittent until the unit has been used some.
Went and looked at the scope today. Unfortunately it was dead on arrival. not worth taking home even though it was free. Thanks for all ur advise and information. I'll keep looking for one in my area and when I find one I will let you know.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: marquette engine analyzer

Hi! I was searching for marquette info when I saw your post. I have all kinds of marquette stuff. I have price list, set up manuals, and parts. If you are interested in anything let me know via email at gary.kay.owens@gmail.com.

Thanks, gary
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