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Old 05-14-2012, 05:04 PM   #16
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

A roasted rear drum and band is certainly not an unusual failure mode in one of these units. Those parts are unusually robust, but a vehicle which is badly "stuck" over and over and is abused during the removal process (rocking) really puts a tremendous strain on the low/reverse band and drum.

A very small amount of friction material will always be found in the sump as the stuff wears away from the clutch discs and the bands. That is why we replace those parts during a rebuild.

A tranny with that kind of deterioration will certainly load the valve body with really nasty oil and debris also so an extreme cleaning must be performed also (which I gather you have already done).

The torque converter is going to have a major load of debris also, I'd always replace it before re-installing the trans.

That rear drum should not be re-used. It's not even a candidate for "turning" ( a very poor reman process in my opinion). It's been badly overheated and those parts (new or used) are fairly inexpensive so no way or reason to try and clean it up.

I do have a few of those rear drums, you are welcome to one if needed. Just needs to be final cleaned before installation.

As for the band, those can vary in cost from $35>$185. No need for the high dollar version which is only used in sub-11 second drag rigs.

While in texas last June, I lost reverse in my t-all. Drove it on home from ft. Worth, just had to be careful where I parked it. The problem was a broken low/reverse band along with a servo piston that tried to escape it's bore crossways. Put the rig up on stands where it then set all summer when my back gave out. Finally got it back together when my Dad stroked this last time and I hit the road east for the temporary relocation.

The absolute best deal on quality 727 parts is the B&M rebuild kit which ihon offers. That kit now includes both bands and both clutch sets, the price can't be beat!

For individual hard parts which ihon/B&M do not carry, I now use these folks who truly do bizz in the right fashion:

automatic transmission parts online

Lemme know if ya want the drum and I'll prep/ship down to ya.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

Great to hear from you Mike. Sorry about your lingering back ailments and the other continuing life stresses. I'm continuing to grapple with a real life issue of my own, that while not on the same level as yours, is nonetheless equally unpleasant. The timing on pretty much everything continues to suck, but there really is no good time for any of these things to happen.

I understand and agree that rocking to unstick a slushbox rig is very abusive and is also a great way to destroy a one-way clutch. I can assure you that there was no such abusive application with regards to this trans. I've detailed the cause of the failure in the initial post of this thread. In a nutshell, the rear band apply linkage malfunctioned on the first engagement due to the fact that the apply strut had been improperly installed. This prevented the band from fully applying when needed in reverse and manlow, and also prevented it from fully releasing in drive forward gears. It was slipping the entire time it was in operation. As hard as that May be to fathom, that's the bible-stackin' truth. In that condition, its easy to see that it wouldn't take many hours or miles of operation to toast the band, even on completely flat ground. With a 5k + lbs vehicle, several jockeys around the yard and a few laps around the neighborhood is plenty. We're talking about a unit that has logged fewer than five miles since the build. I still don't even have this pile registered for legal driving. The rest of the wear parts inside the trans look just as pristine as on the day they were installed. As I stated previously, had this problem been discovered and dealt with immediately, I'm confident that the damage to the band could have been prevented.
So the obvious begged question is, why wasn't it discovered and dealt with immediately? Pretty simple really. A perfect storm of events conspired.

1. Significant time elapsed between completion of the build and installation into the rig.

2. The trans was not original to the rig so a few, minor fitment issues had to be dealt with.

3. The rig was a dead-dog pos in non-running condition at the time of the trans install. Significant effort, equaling further delay was required in order to get the engine running soundly. The vehicle also had horrendous brakes (big surprise) and a suspected rear differential issue. Situations arose which required me to place the vehicle into motion several times, even as obvious functional issues were in various stages of repair. As additional time elapsed, the brake issues were addressed and a low-miles rear diff was swapped in place of the tired unit.

4. I did not want to believe and therefore was slow to overcome my state of denial that there might be something wrong with this freshly rebuilt trans. Once all other rotational issues had been addressed, the unthinkable suddenly became plausible. Of course it was too late by then to undo the damage that had already been done.

Now that the situation has been cleared up, I would very much like to continue this discussion with you by phone if possible. Are either of your numbers from last year still active? I tried getting in touch with you some time ago just to check in. Both your cell and home number appeared to be disco at that time. Please advise. Thanks Mike.
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Last edited by Scoutboy74; 05-14-2012 at 08:32 PM..
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #18
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

I discovered something else that had been installed incorrectly during the initial build. At this point, these discoveries have lost their shock value on me. Once again it pertains to the rear apply servo. What I found is the servo piston riding on top of the outer servo spring, which does not jive with the parts layout in the fsm or munroe. The sheet metal piece which rests just underneath the spring clip is called a spring retainer. The only way it can truly do its job is if it is in direct contact with the spring. It can't contact the spring if the piston is between it and the spring.

Once again, I reviewed the footage from the install and just as before, the video don't lie. It clearly shows the spring being installed into the bore ahead of the piston, with the sheet metal spring retainer placed atop the piston. With everything compressed into place and the spring clip set, the bottom of the servo is seen protruding out past the spring retainer a good inch. When installed properly, the bottom of the piston should be recessed inside the servo bore.

Now I see why the band tension was able to be set even with the apply strut oriented in the wrong direction. The apply portion of the piston protruding past the bore surface more than takes up for the slack in the apply linkage caused by incorrect strut length. Damn near everything that could have been done wrong to the rear servo and apply linkage installation was done. I can suspend my disbelief far enough to begrudgingly accept that an experienced builder can make an occasional mistake. Two screwed pooches in a row is just unfathomable.
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

And the hits just keep coming. After close inspection and comparison of the various servo springs I've autopsied from this trans in conjunction with further review of the build footage, I've discovered the following:

not only was it installed improperly as discussed in the previous post, in addition, the spring that was used for the rear servo is the wrong one! It's a front or kd servo spring, which is larger in diameter than the correct rear servo spring. The actual rs spring was incorrectly installed in the accumulator bore. The correct accumulator spring is considerably smaller in diameter and shorter in length than the rs spring. No wonder I had such a bitch of a time getting the valve body into position on my last attempt! So where is the correct accumulator spring? Hell if I know. Probably sitting in a pile of parts covered in a layer of dog hair inside the shop on the river.

I keep telling myself this is just an episode of the twilight zone and that I'll wake up any minute and none of this will have happened. Think it'll work?
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Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500
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Mongo - '71 1210 Std Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Trac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

Idk but the way I felt Monday morning (rum and coke) it could have been sailor jerry hiz own self.. Are you sure the man by the river was not hitting the bottle?
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

Pretty sure. Once upon a time maybe, but the hard shit don't mix well with a weak ticker. A simple and logical explanation or excuse would at least be entertaining. I'd love to hear it...hell I'd love to hear just about any response with more substance than the disjointed and mostly irrelevant one from two weeks ago. Pretty tough to explain the inexplicable. I think I've been tremendously patient and accommodating thus far out of respect, but my respect tank is sucking fumes.

The numbers are in and the accounting is done. This build was a complete botch job with no fewer than four, blatant fuckups stacked one on top of the other like cord wood. An automatic transmission is a precision piece of machinery. Whether you're a grizzled veteran or a rank novice, if you start mixing and matching springs, installing parts in the wrong order, direction or location...well friends, you're going to have issues. I don't reckon its much different than an engine in that regard.
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Mongo - '71 1210 Std Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Trac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 06-01-2012, 02:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

After crapping in one hand while hoping the empty one would fill with something better for over two weeks with nothing to show for it, I finally decided to say piss on it and move forward using a few parts sourced from scott sinner aka buck dodson to replace what had been damaged and/or lost as a result of the previous build. A special thank you to mr. Dodson for such a generous contribution to this cause. I'm still expecting a meaningful resolution from the previous builder, the kind that any reasonable person in a similar situation would rightfully expect. Whether it happens or not remains to be seen. At any rate, the truck isn't doing anyone a lick of good with the front end up on ramps and trans parts scattered hither and yon. So over the past couple days, I undertook a complete tear down, inspection, cleansing, and reassembly. Basically, I rebuilt the rebuild, which was unavoidable as already discussed. I got everything buttoned up and fresh kool-aid dumped in around noon today. I'm pleased to report that this major problem child is now behaving properly for the first time in nearly 30 years! Its quite an accomplishment and I don't feel bad about crowing a little and patting myself on the back. This was my first transmission rebuild and I doubt it will be my last. I'm pretty sure that I will never encounter another build as needlessly challenging as this one proved to be. It amazed me how much easier everything went back together once I determined what parts needed to go where and in what order. Like the old saying goes, work smart not hard. Since the unit now works perfectly with all the right parts in the right places, that serves as the final indictment on the previous build.
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Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500
Hooty - '74 SII - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x10.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/HFT 8k winch
Mongo - '71 1210 Std Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Trac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

A lot of angst in this ol' thread. Its often tough to reconcile in your head and heart when someone you consider a mentor and friend leaves you holding the bag, even when it wasn't done with any malice or intent. During my recent visit with the gang at IHPA, I had a chance to discuss mayben with Jeff and Chad and they helped give me some fresh perspective. Not that it excuses the mistakes that he made with this build, nor his failure to recognize and assume responsibility once they were pointed out. But it does at least provide a plausible explanation for their occurrence, which I hadn't considered previously. With reasonable explanation comes closure. So michael mayben, if by some strange chance you happen to read this post, I ain't holding any grudges. I'm over it. This transmission is still shifting great nearly two years later, not that the truck logs that many miles. Myself, Jeff, Chad...hell, everyone who frequents this forum, misses the hell out of you. We hope you're doing well and we'd love to hear from you, even if its only an occasional quick message in the chit chat section. Just thought you should hear it from me.
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Favorite hobby...Driving Salma Hayek in my Scout

Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500
Hooty - '74 SII - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x10.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/HFT 8k winch
Mongo - '71 1210 Std Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Trac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"

Last edited by Scoutboy74; 04-29-2014 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

Not to kick that dead horse again, but 100% of the (4) 727's I'm associated with, that mayben built, failed in short order. I own two of 'em. The bright side is they didn't cost much. The r & r process (again) was rather unpleasant, though.
Hell, I'd still by the old fwaker a beer if he showed up.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Trev's Olde Thyme Torkflite Tips

Good to know terry. So this was no anomaly. Thank you.
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Coal Trickle - '99 Dodge Ram 2500 Q-Cab SWB 4x4 - 5.9L 24V CTD/NV4500
Hooty - '74 SII - 392/TF727/D20/3.73 D44's/Spartan FA/Krac-lok RA/RC 4" SUA/34x10.5 TSLs/33g Fuel/HFT 8k winch
Mongo - '71 1210 Std Cab 2WD - 345/TF727/RA17 D60 4.10 Trac-lok - "Mongo love candy! Duh, huh, huh!"
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