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Old 08-28-2012, 09:51 AM   #1
Caperodder
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Default 345 Rebuild

Hi folks,

topic regards an early 1971 Scout II, 345 halfcab, t-18 tranny. Build sheet shows 05-01-71 as the final inspection date.

Been reading through lots of posts regarding the rebuilding of the 345. Understand cracks in the heads, (per mm) as well as cam bearing alignment, differences in head gasket thickness, etc. I've assembled plenty of non-IH engines, so I get the basic process.

The 345 is stock, stamped (345e) and has matching serial numbers to the build sheet. This is a stock restoration job, so I'd like to use this motor if Possible. That was all well and good until I had two local shops here in massachusetts quote the rebuild at between $5-6k. Ouch. This is assuming that everything is required, pistons, cam, lower end etc.

So I go out on the web and find a couple of available long-blocks and see that the price is between $1995, and $2100. $149 shipped anywhere in the usa and $300 for a core. Now with wanting to keep the original block in the vehicle, this really doesn't help me, but I did it for comparison. Huge difference between $2k and $5k. Are these blocks just crap, or are they professionally built in high volume facilities? One even offers a 7 year 70,000 mile warranty.

I spoke with my two local shops, and although they say they have done plenty of IH engines, I was less than impressed with the lack of knowledge of some of the IH eccentricities listed in various posts here. I spoke to someone who had a 345 done at one of the shops, but the engine has an annoying "ticking" noise coming from it. (I think it's his fuel pump, but that's a different matter)they also told me that they put an "umbrella" rig on the valves to eliminate the puff of smoke at startup. From what I've read here, this is a no-no.

So where does that leave me? Once I tear the engine down, and assess the wear and tear, I'm thinking of having the local shop do the hot-tanking and machining, purchasing the components myself, and doing all of the assembly. Of course, the heads will have to be totally done by the shop. I also have concerns on installing the cam myself.

Looking for comments from guys that have "been there, done that" and can lead me in the right direction. If there are posts that I am missing regarding this topic, please fire away.

At the end of the day, I just don't want to spend $5-6k on a rebuild.

Thanks!

-brett
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Hey brett, mm mentioned that you and he had some history so glad you posted.

If you are at all like me you want things done right. I May have some less then favorable opinions about cattle yard engine re-builders that lump them all together but they are not all bad. You're trolling when you buy one. The details are what cost you the most because of the hours and the details can ruin a rebuild. I can spent a full day cleaning one of my engine blocks after the machine work and hot tanking. No one else will...

If you have good engine building etiquette and proper measuring tools, you will do a far better and thorough job on your build than anyone else.

My vote is to go about it yourself and find a machine shop who will listen to how you want things like the cam bearing install done.

What ever you do, do not have the main saddles align bored or honed. You can't recover from the cam to crank bore shift with our much monkey business..

Run the rod bearings at .002 and the mains at .0025-.003 clearance.

Which ever way you go keep us posted on your build. We will help with whatever you need.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Hello Robert,

so that's the plan. Do it myself. I prefer doing it right, and doing it myself, but also understand that sometimes outside "resources" are required.

I've read mm's well written post regarding the rocker assembly. Since the state of this motor is unknown, much will be told regarding its previous care as I dissassemble and inspect.

I have a frame off resto going on at the same time, so motor work will start and stop as I flip between body and engine. I'll post progress, and welcome input.

One other thing. The machine shop here tells me that early 345's such as this, have 392 heads. True or urban myth? I'm not at a point yet to where I can read the casting numbers.

Thanks much!

-brett
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by caperodder View Post
One other thing. The machine shop here tells me that early 345's such as this, have 392 heads. True or urban myth? I'm not at a point yet to where I can read the casting numbers.

Thanks much!

-brett
If you have the factory manual double check the valve sizes. I recall the 392 being larger... The intake port face openings are the same as are the deck height and intake manifolds by fit. Port flow is another variable I have not had time to compare.
For sure the 345 and ic 392 are nowhere near the same as the 345 never came with ic (improved cooling). The head gaskets are different, for the diference in bore but we need to lay the gaskets on each other and compare the cooling holes on a non ic 392 to a 345.
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Well, I pulled the motor, trans and x-fer case out all as one unit. Gotta be impressed with the sheer weight of this thing.

Tearing this engine down, simply because I don't know its history, and it leaks oil from every available seal/gasket. I was pleasantly surprised to find a nearly new clutch and pressure plate. The flywheel, however, does need to be turned.

The inside of the motor was surprisingly clean. Oil gallery had sludge, but was open. An .039 gasket indicates that this engine was already opened up at some point. Very little carbon, and virtually no ridge on the cylinders. Maybe I can get away with a ring job, that's yet to be seen after careful measurements. Haven't checked the lower end yet, but I'm hopeful.

Looks like all of the lifters are slightly concave, and at least one of them was not rotating. Likely I will replace the lifters and put in a new cam regardless.

Nomenclature on the top of the piston reads up, 334218-c2, a. Perhaps someone could tell me if this is factor stock, or we have oversized pistons here. My recollection tells me that most oversize pistons are usually marked .020, .030 etc.

Once I get the lower end checked out, it's on to the heads.

-brett
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

I don't have a part number list for the 345 but standard bore is 3.875 might be 3.879 for clearence but will be in that range if still std.
Definitely plan on a cam and lifters and all bearings. Should the bores and pistons turn out to be in spec light light home and re-ring.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Thanks.

This Scout is basically being built as a weekend driver on the back roads of cape cod. Not much off-road. Will rarely see speeds of 55 mph.

Which cam would you recommend? Improved gas milage, if that's even possible, would be nice. Running a 2bbl carb.

-brett
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:34 AM   #8
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

isky performance camshaft for IH v8 engines - International Scout parts

comp cams 252 grind camshaft for IH v8 engine - International Scout parts

The smallest isky and will give you more torque than the small comp because of the larger lift number. The specs are vague however to compare apples to apples.
Wish I could see the lobe lift values for these two cams. The different grinders don't use the same rocker ratio in their lift numbers.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Ok the math begins......

Motor is on the stand and mostly stripped. No noticeable ridge, and the pistons came out of the bore easily without reaming.

The cylinder bore is measuring 3.877, so I'm at the high end of the service numbers, (3.8745-3.8770). I'm using bore guages, (the kind without a dial), because years ago I loaned my dial bore-guage to someone.... Not crazy about using these for accurate measuring, so I'll be purchasing an new dial bore-guage to confirm these numbers. Once I have that, I'll measure in both axis, at three different depths to check for out-of-round and taper.

The crank is still in the block, but I did measure the rod journal diameters at 2.373, using two different calipers. Those are right on the money. (2.373-2.374). These are just preliminary checks, and again I will be measuring two axis, at two different locations.

This engine has an unknown history, but all indicators show that the heads were removed and the oil pan was removed. Looks like the oil pump might have been rebuilt. No signs of cam bearing glop in the pan, but it looks like the maintenance schedule for oil changes was abused. Some crud in the oil pump pickup screen, and the oil rings on the pistons. Pistons look pretty good, and all of the rings were moving freely. No deep gouges or grooves.

Life would be good if I only need to:

re-ring
new main and con-rod bearings
new cam and bearings

haven't taken a good look at the heads yet, but no signs of cracks, and the rockers look decent. We'll see.

Been reading as many threads as I could find here regarding rebuilding. One thing that concerns me is that I have no way of telling if the block or the heads were decked. Double-decking either of those would change the alignment of the intake manifold, change compression, change the fit of the valley pan, etc. Haven't checked for flatness yet. I did remove an .039 modern head gasket. I guess I have to mic the top of the piston at tdc to the deck, yes? Haven't ever done that before, but it should be easy enough with a magnetic base and a dial indicator. Don't know what numbers I should be looking for, so if there is a thread I missed, just point me to it. I believe "quench" comes into play, yes? (I'll search on that).

Once you get into this, it's easy to see why engine shops get so much $$ for doing these operations. Blueprinting takes lots of time.

-brett
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Think about a set of micrometers. You'll need them to set the bore gauge and verify piston to cylinder clearance.
If you still have the crank and a piston in it rotate the crank till tdc and use the tail end of your caliper to measure how far in the hole the piston is. Good to check one on each bank too. You should shoot for "0" deck when using .040 head gaskets. The factory set the pistons around .025-.035 in the hole with the steel gaskets.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Looks like I'd need a 2"-3" and a 3"-4" micrometer.

If I understand you correctly, the surface of the top of the piston should match the deck. What if the head has already been decked? Any concern?

Brett
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Yes, zero deck is when the piston is flush with the deck at it's highest point (tdc).


You will want to burette (cc) the chamber volumes to get an accurate compression ratio. Really the only way to know for sure.. Iirc 78-80cc is a standard 345 chamber.

Yep those sizes but why buy the two when a 5 piece set is so cheap.

But a 3 piece set 1-4" is cheap too. Always good to have a 1" mic.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Back from a brief hiatus working on the chassis and body, which are now powder coated. (I powder coat primed the entire body).

Anyway, the block is stripped and little if any wear has been detected in the cylinders as well as the main and connecting rod dimensions. So, I'll be doing a light hone and replace with standard size parts.

The camshaft on the other hand will be replaced along with bearings and lifters. I've read several excellent posts here regarding the proper installation of the cam bearings, but I will still be asking questions as I progress.

The local machinest will be hot-tanking the block, magnafluxing, performing the light hone, and installing the cam bearing under my close scrutiny. The rest I will assemble. We'll get into the heads and rockers later.

Regarding "zero decking" the head, it looks like I need to remove between .020" and .030" from the block. (have to finish careful checking) does that seem about right? The machinest was rather dubiuos about removing this much material from the block, until I described the difference between oem head gaskets dimensions and the fel-pro replacements. Says he's done many IH blocks, and I know of a few he's done in the area, but I was surprised that he didn't already know this. Likely there are many engines running out here here with even lower compression, which doesn't help with the isky 256 cam. I also don't think he has a grip on understanding the importance of the cam bearing installation. My fear is this will be treated like a 350 Chevy block.

There is one other machinest in the area, and I May have the same conversations with him and compare. Best I can do is be very watchful.

Threads I've been reviewing for education are:

"the sonjamotor lives"
"350 buck truck"
"broken rocker"
"cam bearing questions"
"no oil in the drivers side head"


These are all well documented and detailed. If there are some other I May have missed, just point them out to me.

Damn I sure do miss mm on the posts!!

-brett
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by caperodder View Post
Regarding "zero decking" the head, it looks like I need to remove between .020" and .030" from the block. (have to finish careful checking) does that seem about right? The machinest was rather dubiuos about removing this much material from the block, until I described the difference between oem head gaskets dimensions and the fel-pro replacements. Says he's done many IH blocks, and I know of a few he's done in the area, but I was surprised that he didn't already know this. Likely there are many engines running out here here with even lower compression, which doesn't help with the isky 256 cam. I also don't think he has a grip on understanding the importance of the cam bearing installation. My fear is this will be treated like a 350 Chevy block.
I recall decking between .025 and .03 on numerous occasions.

Zero or flush is nice and the best for quench on these IH's with big piston clearances but error on the in the hole side... Like .005 down if you have and worries...
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: 345 Rebuild

I just ordered a 3 hole deck bridge, so that I can make accurate measurements. I tried it with the opposite side of a caliper, but foud that it was inconsistent.

I'd like to get to as close to zero as I can. Deck bridge will give excellent readings. (and they're cheap)

-brett
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