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Old 11-15-2013, 03:31 PM   #16
MarkO
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

If you do repower to diesel power you are going to have to change out the rear gears.

Most of the 3/4-ton and 1-ton ihc vehicles I have seen had 4.09 rear gears. Some had even shorter legs like 4.56 or even shorter. The longest legs I have seen were in the 3.70's.

Even with gears in the 3.70's range you are going to have a really low top speed since most light duty diesels like the 6bt or the t444 redline at 2650 rpm. With 4.09 gears that will give you a top speed of about 47 mph.

Some of the dodge/cummins trucks had gears in the under 3.0 gear ratio range.

Which is part of the problem and added cost of repowering to diesel power.

One other thought, if you do get your power package donor from a school bus, why not use the allison that is usually found in a school bus. You May have to make some tunnel changes but the durability of the allison is head and shoulders above any of the automatics found in light duty trucks from the big 3.

Since most are 4-speeds you could really go high speed with the rear gears since you would have a really wide spread of gear ratios that would give you low starting gear.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:51 PM   #17
Scout IISS
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
its a dulley right?
No. But a have a neighbor that has another 1310 rusting away in her barnyard that is a flat bed, with a duelly. I'm strongly considering buying her ear axle, and putting it on mine. I can easily have the bed modified.

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Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
what front axle is in it now...
At present its 2wd. So no front axle. I'm going to replace the front end so I can make it into a 4wd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
as for the rear I would just get a late model aam 11.5'' it will have disc's stock. The dodge's even already come in the 3.5x ratios as well. It will save alot of money over a gear swap and disc kit for the rear. Plus its stronger then a Dana 70. Similar weld on new perches which are cheap too. I can get decent mileage used rearend around here for $300-400 ready to go. Check out car-part.com--used auto parts market
I've got the Dana 70 axle. I already have the brake kit ordered. It was half of the cost of what I have seen aam 11.5's going for.

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Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
a bus will most likely has an allison auto with sae bellhouse.
I have know idea what the transmission is, if its got a good gear spread, then I will modify my tunnel, if not, its going on ebay.

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Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
I have been looking at buses as well for the t444e to swap into my 1210. But I might just stick with a manual.
Not sure what manual trans will mate up. The zf 6 speed really can't handle much more than what the engine put out from the factory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
most of the 3/4-ton and 1-ton ihc vehicles I have seen had 4.09 rear gears. Some had even shorter legs like 4.56 or even shorter. The longest legs I have seen were in the 3.70's.
I'm going to stick a 3.54:1 gear in the rear end. The parts aren't that expensive since I have several neighbors that have the requisite vehicles to be pulling parts from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
one other thought, if you do get your power package donor from a school bus, why not use the allison that is usually found in a school bus. You May have to make some tunnel changes but the durability of the allison is head and shoulders above any of the automatics found in light duty trucks from the big 3.
as I told bo185, if the transmission has the right gear spread, I'll keep it, if not, its going on ebay.

What I'm planning for the engine will cost a pretty penny. I'm going to strip it down, put in head studs, get it fire ringed, put in a more aggressive cam, slight longer stroke (making it a 454 cid), and lower the compression ratio by lowering the deck.

After all that I'm going to set up a compound supercharging forced induction intake. The first stage will be a pair of vortech v3 superchargers that blow air through an intercooler. These chargers will then feed a kenny bell 4.2l liquid cooled supercharger thats mounted on top of the engine.

All totaled I'm looking at about 35 to 45 pounds of boost. All without any boost lag. In my experience my engine isn't going to be spooling up the turbos during regular driving enough to really make much of a difference. With mechanically powered superchargers my air mass increases instep with my engine speed, so I always have full boost with zero lag, even when I'm idling.

So I will have zero problem with puffing black smoke.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

The point on the aam is if your having to regear the Dana 70 and do brakes, it will end up costing the same or more then an the aam ready to go with taller gears. So why not get something that will have a working parking brake. Most all the drum to rear disc kits don"t have a parking brake!!! Not to mention the aam is way stronger and will support your power upgrades so if its around the same amount in the long run its a no brainier.

Just buy a Dana 60 for the front since your 2wd. The dulley ones are common cheap if you look hard enough, and it will be better than the Dana 70 from the donor IH in the long run as well since it will have disc already too.sw

also, fyi the zf6 trans should handle what ever a stock dt444e with throw at it no problem. If came stock in the d-max trucks and will support 650ft/lb plus easy. But if your doing performance mods for the price I would avoid it.

I myself May just run a mdt trans out of my donor if its is a manual. Not to worried about it right now. I hav though about just running the t34 I have now with an sae bellhouse if I can find one then going with a gear vendors or regearing as well.

If you ran compound turbos there would be no boost lag and might package fit alot better and you can obtain those same boost levels. Is the sc going to clear the hood??
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Last edited by Bo185; 11-15-2013 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
the point on the aam is if your having to regear the Dana 70 and do brakes, it will end up costing the same or more then an the aam ready to go with taller gears. So why not get something that will have a working parking brake. Most all the drum to rear disc kits don't have a parking brake!!! Not to mention the aam is way stronger and will support your power upgrades so if its around the same amount in the long run its a no brainier.
not sure when you last shopped disc brake kits, but all the kits I've been looking at have parking brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
also, fyi the zf6 trans should handle what ever a stock dt444e with throw at it no problem. If came stock in the d-max trucks and will support 650ft/lb plus easy. But if your doing performance mods for the price I would avoid it.
If I took the stock engine, and only did the basic upgrades, I would overload the zf6. Which is why I'm looking at a 4r100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
I myself May just run a mdt trans out of my donor if its is a manual. Not to worried about it right now. I hav though about just running the t34 I have now with an sae bellhouse if I can find one then going with a gear vendors or regearing as well.
Whats a t34? I've heard of a t34 tank, but not a transmission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo185 View Post
if you ran compound turbos there would be no boost lag and might package fit alot better and you can obtain those same boost levels. Is the sc going to clear the hood??
The best, most advanced, multistage compound turbo systems all have boost lag. No matter what you do, a turbo system is going to have boost lag. Turbos require the increased exhaust gas flow to spool up. And that never happens until after the engine increases rpms. As a result, you always have turbo lag.

That's why any serious tuner will use a compound supercharger or super/turbo set up. Not to forget that its far simpler to install, and costs much less.

But all of that is a long way off, and will require many things to happen before its really worthwhile talk about how to hot rod the engine, most importantly, getting the right bus.

Now pulling back to reality here, I really have no choice but to work with what I have. I need to get the brakes working, and that means getting the drums to at least engage.

Once I have the ability to stop, I can work on the go part. As I see it, I really have no choice but to try to get the 392 working again. Its going to suck gas, but at least at that point it will function.

I will have an easier time working on it once I can get it moving and stopping.

After that, I can think about fixing the interior.
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

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Originally Posted by Scout iiss View Post
not sure when you last shopped disc brake kits, but all the kits I've been looking at have parking brakes.
Yeah most use the worthless caddy calipers. Worthless parking brake for a heavy rig. I have yet to see an affordable disc brake kit with a decent parking brake. Even the reg non parking brake ones will be $300+ in the end by the time you buy the parts. Yeah the brackets are whats dirt cheap. Then you will have to ope the rotor holes. Good luck doing that if you ever need to change one and your nowhere near a machine shop. The complete kits are $600 for the parking brake ones.

Got a link to the cheap kits you mention with a parking brake??? Like I said your still going to spend money on a gear swap too. Do the math $200-300 gear swap, plus $300 disc brake swap. That's $500-600 easy. But, hey its your rig do whatever just giving you a stronger and equally priced to little more alternate in the aam 11.5. Most times they can be had for $500-800 around here, hell even the amm 10.5'' would work it the old 14 bolt with disc's. Those are even cheaper and they are the still as strong otr stronger than the IH Dana 70 which is not the hd one!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout iiss View Post
if I took the stock engine, and only did the basic upgrades, I would overload the zf6. Which is why I'm looking at a 4r100.
That's funny the power ratings listed for it say other wise. I agree not strongest but a stock 7.3l won't hurt it. Your the one that mentioned it in the first place. Lol


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Originally Posted by Scout iiss View Post
whats a t34? I've heard of a t34 tank, but not a transmission.
its a 5 speed overdrive that came stock in IH light and medium trucks in 60' 70's. Obviously, your very new to IH's. Buy a service manual they are available in repo and start reading its the best place to start.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout iiss View Post
the best, most advanced, multistage compound turbo systems all have boost lag. No matter what you do, a turbo system is going to have boost lag. Turbos require the increased exhaust gas flow to spool up. And that never happens until after the engine increases rpms. As a result, you always have turbo lag.

That's why any serious tuner will use a compound supercharger or super/turbo set up. Not to forget that its far simpler to install, and costs much less.

But all of that is a long way off, and will require many things to happen before its really worthwhile talk about how to hot rod the engine, most importantly, getting the right bus.

Now pulling back to reality here, I really have no choice but to work with what I have. I need to get the brakes working, and that means getting the drums to at least engage.

Once I have the ability to stop, I can work on the go part. As I see it, I really have no choice but to try to get the 392 working again. Its going to suck gas, but at least at that point it will function.

I will have an easier time working on it once I can get it moving and stopping.

After that, I can think about fixing the interior.
Hey seems like you got things all figured out, good luck with the build, not going to bother you anymore, by offering advice to someone that's been there and done alot on a d-series truck. (which is what you have btw since you never heard of a t34)
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Last edited by Bo185; 11-16-2013 at 12:22 AM..
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:03 PM   #21
MarkO
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

With an engine build you envision I doubt even a t-34 would stand up to it if you got into it very often.

By the way, unless you have driven a t-34 I would not be setting my heart on one. Yes it has od and 4th is direct. But it puts the big jump in gears between 3rd and 4th rather than between 2nd and 3rd.

If you are bound and determined to use a manual I would be looking at the 6- and 7-speed gear boxes found in the small/medium duty isuzu/ud/mitsu trucks. Some of those have two od gears. Even with two od gears the gear splits are much closer together and more evenly spaced.

I suppose, outside of bragging rights, I don't really understand what your end game for this truck is going to be. Putting that much on top of your engine is really going to blow a lot. You will need to really boost your pump and/or the injectors to take advantage of all of that extra air which will result in a lot of black smoke on take off. Even superchargers have a little bit of lag.

Have you considered how much parasitic drag those superchargers are going to have on the engine? The beauty of turbo's is they utilize waste energy. Dual stage turbo's would eliminate the majority of the lag and would not be sucking up hp and fuel while you are just cruising down the road. Now if you are wanting to use this truck in pull competitions then some big blowers on top will be of some use. But in every day driving, even if you were pulling 40'+ fivers with five slides, you would not need that much induction help.

Outside of the cost of installation I am thinking that blowers are going to eat up $$$ without a corresponding balance in hp gains big enough to warrant the expense.

I think you will find an allison mt640 series of transmissions have really nice gear spreads particularly since they have lock up in 3rd and 4th. The lock up acts like a half gear above 3rd and 4th to give you six forward gears instead of four. You could even upgrade to an allison mt650 series which would add a stump pulling gear at the bottom.

At the end of the day it is your truck and your $$$. Have fun!
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

If I were you id do my best to listen to the gents on here offering their extensive knowledge and many years of trial and error
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

I believe its important to note, before bitterness over runs this thread, that I am one of those people who are hyperanalytical. I also score a 31 on the autism tests.

In my pier group it is completely acceptable to flatly tell me I'm wrong, so long as your rebuttal is founded upon facts and devoid of opinion.

In short, its more important to be correct than right.

Marko, while your last post was heavy on opinion, it also contained an objective and well reasoned argument against supercharging; along with a sound argument for turbocharging.

While I'm not fully convinced that supercharger is impractical for my intended use of the truck, your statements did shed some light on my hyperfocus on volumetric efficiency. Which drew me away from my original intention. That being adequate low end grunt, while maintaining respectable fuel economy.

However, for clarity's sake, I will restate that I do not want a manual transmission. I prefer to use an automatic transmission.

The 4r100 can, with proper aftermarket improvements, provide the strength and durability I require.

If there is another transmission that can do the job better, my ears are open.

I'd also like your opinions on potentially converting the current engine over to propane. Its an inexpensive fuel that is easily obtained in my area. And I'm told that it is a cleaner burning fuel.

While I'm not worried about the environment nor do I believe in man's aledgid power to destroy the world; after all, nature is a tough broad and she can take care of herself; however, after visiting la on my way to tempe a few years back I was quite thoroughly convinced that we are capable of screwing up the environment where we make our nests.

So, how complicated is a propane conversion, and if its not to complex, who makes the best conversion kits?

Also, my truck's fuel tanks are mounted side saddle, would it be wise to move them to the bed, or mount the propane tanks where the gas tanks are now?

Last edited by Scout IISS; 11-18-2013 at 09:10 PM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

Thank you for the kind words.

I will admit that most of what I post are my own opinions, most of which have been developed over the years from experience.

Propane as a motor fuel is not a bad idea as long as you never travel very far from a refueling source. Since propane has considerably less btu's compared to a like amount of gasoline you will be using considerably more propane to do the same amount of work. As long as the additional use does not end up costing more than gasoline you will have a winner on your hands. Also be aware, because it does not have as much fire you will have considerably less get up and go.

Propane conversions are not that difficult if you can find a kit with all of the parts and pieces. Ihc made the conversion a factory option on their trucks and tractors going back to the early '50's. In other words, the kits necessary to do the job are out there. The problem is they are pretty scarce. Purchasing a new kit is possible but they do not come cheap.

In regards to low end grunt, the ihc engines are notable for their copious amounts of low end grunt. Even hooked up to an automatic they will pull from a stop amazing loads. Just be prepared that low end grunt does not also equal high top speed.

The sv304 in my t-all is the exact same engine that was in a loadstar bus I drove years ago. Even when I have my 34.5' avion travel trailer hooked on behind we motor down the road with the traffic most of the time. Hills do slow it down considerably more than a Ford 460 v-8.

Will it pull as hard as a Ford 460 or GM 454? No. But it will use half as much gas as either of those will use.

As far as transmissions are concerned, any allison is going to be built heavier duty than any light duty transmission no matter how many heavy duty use upgrades are included.

If you use the power package of a bus the empty weight of the bus is going to be more than the gross combined weight you could ever put on a light line vehicle or put on a trailer towed behind. A transmission that is built at the factory to handle a certain hp and torque and gcvwr of certain amount is going to be more than adequate to any task you put it to.

In the majority of the country air brakes are the exception and not the rule like it is out here on the left coast and mountain states. If you were to purchase a bus with wet brakes it would come with a driveline parking brake that is cable operated and is designed to hold in place a vehicle that does not have a spring brake parking brake, park pawl, or compression from the engine to keep the vehicle from moving when parked.

By the way, if you are interested, harlows bus sales has a 1987 ihc/thomas bus with a dt360 in it for sale. Asking price as is, where is: $3,000.00.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

I have been looking at the harlow site. Is that the one with the 5+2 manual? I've been considering it, but it is a manual. There are a couple ihc buses on there that have the t444e, one states "auto" the other just says 5 speed. I have sent inquiries on all three.

Who knows, the manual May prove to be the one with the best gearing.

One thing does have me worried, how much will it cost to get it from webster, sd to skamokawa, wa.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:33 AM   #26
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

Ok, been doing some reading up on the at545 that might be behind the t444e in those buses. A lot of people don't like them. Most of the complaints have to do with gearing, excessive slippage do to the lack of a lock up torque converter, and the high engine speed requiered to bring the fluid pressure. Not to mention all the other problems that are intrinsic to those flaws.

This is making the 5+2 manual look more attractive. One of the form posters seemed quite fond of his manual 5+2. And his post implied that the +2 is overdrive and not a two speed tear end. Is that assumption correct?

Anyhow, hopefully I will know more tomorrow, provided I get a prompt reply to my inquiries.

Its late. Time to hit the hay.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:36 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

You make less power with propane. Now......I have seen a 392 with propane and a turbo. The truck was powerful. The dt360 in the bus that marko was talking about would be the engine to have. For one it has wet liners. The t444e engine is parent bore. Google the dt360 swapped into a Ford. The gentleman used a 4r100, had an adapter made to bolt it to the engine. To me the dt360 would be better then the t444e, for one its mechanical injected, it can be in-framed (rebuilt in the truck), and can be made to put out a lot of power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zo9acqsjqc
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxnsqnwy_z8
Dt360 with a 4r100.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:38 PM   #29
Scout IISS
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

The major concern is that the dt360 won't fit. Does anyone have dimensions for the engine? I've looked and looked and came up with nothing.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:54 PM   #30
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Default Re: 1310 Barn Find - or - Rescued from the field.

Dt360
44.03" long
35.63" from bottom of pan to valve cover
28.8" wide
1,200 lbs dry weight.
175 hp at 2,700 rpm
419 lb-ft torque @ 1700rpm
flywheel housing sae #2
flwheel 41" single plate clutch.

Cummins 6bt
40'' long
24.9'' wide
37.9'' tall.
There have been folks who swapped 6bt's in fullsize IH's. A dt360 could be made to fit. Its a tighter fit in a 2000 and something Ford I posted in the youtube links. You can make it work. And if you looked and came up with nothing you didn't look hard enough.

Last edited by Steve Grant; 11-20-2013 at 09:57 PM.. Reason: Calling it like I see it.
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