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Old 09-03-2008, 05:00 PM   #61
gotscout73
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Default Best 2bbl carb setup

I am not a carb guru so I am going to start out simple. I have a 1973 scoutt II with a 345v8, auto transmission. It has a 2bbl carb that I believe is a 2210 based on the pictures in this post. My carb is giving me alot of problems at altitude - above 6000ft. We run alot of trails above 7500 ft at some good angles at times. I have upgraded the dist to a presolite with an msd coil from IHOnly. I have had the float lowered and adjusted for off-roading in the hills - supposedly. The carb floods often and just generally does not run well above 6,000 ft. It runs well down low except it is cold blooded and has a good bit of hesitation...I can put up with that as long as it runs in the hills.

First - what would be considered the best 2bbl carb for the 345. I would like to start out with a good system first and then fine tune.

Please just provide any advice you can off and ask any questions. I would also like peoples opinions on using a fuel pressure regulator. This seems to be popular around here for the mountains.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:32 PM   #62
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Gotscout73, lets start with some basic info: what's the list# it is on the float bowl and a few pics would be nice also need to verify the carb you have 2210, 2245 or other.
As I learned earlier in this thread concerning alltitude timing can play a roll along with the jet(s) size.
So knowing the numbers you are running will also help, such as degree of timing, dwell and vacumm, any emmisions.
Have you done any work to the carb?
I am not the carb expert michael is but this info will help us find out whats going on.
The hesitation down low and alltitude flooding, there is a good long discusion with towpainter3 covering just that in this thread.
Post back here when you have more info.
Ron
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Old 09-03-2008, 06:13 PM   #63
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Dayem...you kidz are catchin' on fast!

Gotscout...follow through with what ron has tossed out. And...post up all yore engine deetale including the list number and IH part number stamped on the bowl. I need to see what the oem setup on it is. Has it previously been opened up and had a complete reconditioning process performed?

If it is a 2210/2245, those carbs are definitely not altitude friendly! That is because they are smog throwaways, and have very little that can be done for 'em in the way of "tuning.

The current design Holley centerhung 2300, Holley p/n 0-7448 is the perfect carb for your sitch! Infinitely tunable to any degree. I work with more of those than anything else. Check this recent thread regarding that mixer:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...2977-carb.html

I set those carbs up so they are right out of the box when ya get 'em. There are a few additional "tweeks" that can be made to enhance offroadablity also, that adds about $45 to the overall cost just for the parts, I set 'em up for no additional labor charge since the bowl is already off for doing the jetting for your engine setup.

All Holley carbs (except the high end race stuff, dominator, etc. Are rated for a standard fuel inlet pressure of 5.5psi at sea level. And that is exactly what an oem IH mechanical fuel pump supplies. Above say 5000ft., I suppose you could add a regulator set for 4psi. But, I've run my rig up to 10k on several occasions makin' passes in tow-mode in Colorado and never experienced any issues with carb flooding due to fuel pressure, only the loss of power and enrichened mixture due to elevation increase. I don't even bother to stop and twiddle the idle mixtures!

And I need much deetale regarding your ignition setup. Is your distributor a prestolite electronic or a point-triggered unit???? Which msd coil, iho/ihon sell several different msd coils, some are more suitable for some distributors than others. If you got the distributor from us, then it's prolly a prestolite electronic, those are outstanding units and those were new so wear should not be a factor. What's the base timing right now when the rig becomes unmanageable?

What air cleaner are you using? Is all the emissions componentry in place and functional? If not, what is your setup?

We need deetale, then we can see what we can do!
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:37 AM   #64
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Quote:
dayem...you kidz are catchin' on fast!
You teach your grasshoppers well.
Even a flatlander that grew up next to a hill.
Ron
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:22 PM   #65
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Wink Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Yes like they say details are everything. Look back at where ive set the float and accel pump . I was havin the same troubles. After some minor tweekage it'll climb straight up without stalling or flooding. I'm not sure of our altitude in georgia and in tennessee where we ride but some of the hills are steep [ real steep].if you need anything just ask.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:43 PM   #66
gotscout73
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Default Some details on carb

Thanks for the replies. So here is what I have.

Numbers on carb.
R 6828-1
151911-091
2033

I do not have any emissions stuff on the engine...at least I have pulled off most of what I know about. The dist. Is a prestolite with a msd blaster 2 coil from IHOnly. Timing was set per what Jeff had suggested at the time...not sure what that was. I do not know the vacuum or dwell. I have the old air cleaner setup, but what you see is what came with the truck when I bought it. See attched pics.

For the most part I am open to just getting a new carb set up and then I can have it taken to a competent carb person, to put the finishing touches on per your suggestions. I have the name of a person nearby that sets up alot of vehicles for our area. Thank you.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Carb_Dside1.jpg (56.8 KB, 803 views)
File Type: jpg Carb_Dside2.jpg (65.4 KB, 699 views)
File Type: jpg Carb_Rear.jpg (57.1 KB, 529 views)
File Type: jpg Carb_Top.jpg (43.6 KB, 496 views)
File Type: jpg Dist_Coil_Carb.jpg (80.1 KB, 615 views)
File Type: jpg Engine_Comp.jpg (102.0 KB, 920 views)
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:36 AM   #67
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
The current design Holley centerhung 2300, Holley p/n 0-7448 is the perfect carb for your sitch! Infinitely tunable to any degree. I work with more of those than anything else. Check this recent thread regarding that mixer:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...2977-carb.html

I set those carbs up so they are right out of the box when ya get 'em. There are a few additional "tweeks" that can be made to enhance offroadablity also, that adds about $45 to the overall cost just for the parts, I set 'em up for no additional labor charge since the bowl is already off for doing the jetting for your engine setup.

Michael can fix you right up in all aspects
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:50 AM   #68
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Ok got, I'm back...late nite last nite!

The carb referenced is a '74 edition 2210 oem onna 345 "light duty" truck (meaning Scout II). The IH p/n is actually 451911 c91.

That mixer should have #53 main jets, the power valve has no "consumer" designation, that was determined in the emissions lab during development. It's only a single value. Remember, this is an emissions carb and as such has little if any "adjustability"! And "if" the vehicle was originally delivered to the end-user by an IH dealership located above 5000ft. Elevation, it would have had a selling dealer-installed "kit" consisting of different jets, power valve, timing spec, choke setting, etc., etc., so that it was "smog legal" at the customer delivery altitude. Common practice for all light duty new vehicles back in the day.

So the only way to know what main jets it has is look at 'em!

Because of the severe loss of engine performance at altitude, in order to motivate, ya gotta open the throttle bigger! Doing so, drops manifold vacuum to nearly zilch. The power valve "opens" at an approximate 8"hg at sea level, that is it's calibrated setpoint and can't be changed. So when manifold vacuum hits a nominal 8"hg, then the power valve has the effect of increasing main jet size to approximate #59>#61. That is an increase in "richness" of about 15% and couldn't come at a worse time when the mixture is already super-Rich due to altitude. Thus...your perception of "flooding" which is not what is happening.

What to do?

Open the carb and kit it! At the same time I'd replace the #53 jets with prolly #47 to start with. Ya haven't stated what the altitude is where the truck lives...so I'm "assuming" around 5kft.?? If so, the #47 jets should be very close. If ya normally drive below 5kft., then tha bitch will be pretty lean and get worse as ya go down tha hill to the point of lean surge and lean misfire. The jets used in that carb are the standard Holley "gasoline" pattern hanging on the wall in most parts houses and sold in pairs. However, those very small jet numbers May be difficult to find in some markets since no "normal" chryfordrolet Holley performance carb application uses jets that small, they typically run in the 70's>80's. And ya never "drill" on Holley jets, they are not "drilled" at the point of manufacture, but are carefully "broached" very precisely, then each is flow tested for "grading" before packaging. And common number drill bit sets are not the same as the Holley jet sizing system, no relation! So there is no practical way to change a Holley jet to a higher fuel flow value, ya just buy an assortment and swap 'em out...that's called tuning!

The aftermarket Holley 2300 centerhung carburetor "upgrade" we push is infinitely tunable in all circuits! It's a performance carb, not a smog carb....major difference!

When one of these carb setups is ordered, the internals are changed out for whatever altitude and use the owner describes to us. And after the sale, we give unlimited tech support to get it to play nice with your application. There is no charge for that, ya don't take it to someone else to make it play nice! You can change the jetting in it if need be, very simple to do and we step you through that...same as we're doing now.

In the meantime...forget the use of a timing light...power time it! Those motors can run up to 12*btdc static timing at sea level, even more at altitude. There is a limit though...no more than 14* at altitude unless the camshaft was "degreed" at the point of installation and you are using the "straight up" timing gear set with the suffix "r1" on the part number on the gear set.

The msd blaster II coil has a spec'd primary resistance of 0.7ohms, very low. I've not installed one of those in conjunction with the prestolite electronic distributor but I know Jeff has had great success with that. Did you use the msd coil "kit" ballast resistor in that installation?

That distributor/coil setup cannot use the oem "resistor wire" feed from the ignition switch in the "run" position, they require a full b+ feed. Since your '74 rig was originally equipped with the resistor wire ya need to take a look at that, it May be that you don't have the ignition system properly set up, just an idea I see repeated over and over! And...the proper coil "match" for that unit calls for primary resistance of 1.2>1.4 ohms at 70*f.

These electronic trigger ignition systems are very demanding in having proper installation, same as for a breaker point system!

And remember...an IH is an IH! It ain't a chryfordrolet, ain't a tojo, ain't a sammi, ain't a rambler/Jeep, etc.
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Last edited by Michael Mayben; 09-05-2008 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:09 PM   #69
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Ok. First, how much for a 2300 carb setup the best it can be? I prefer to trash what I have and go forward...I am tired of ridicule from my Bronco and Jeep friends, even though they can't haul camping gear because they have no room behind the rear seat. I live in the central valley of CA. I drive my Scout for ice cream runs with the wife and kids on occasion and then on to trails that are mostly above 5,000 ft on up to maybe 9,000 ft...so I don't care about performance on the flatlands. It has a auto tranny and will be running 33-34" tires with new gearing after this winter. I will do very little towing, if any. Let me know if you need additional info.

As for the coil, I am pretty dumb but can follow directions, tell me what/how I go about checking the resistance or is there a better coil for the prestolite. I did not use a resistor or add a resistor - it was essentially plug and play. If I remember right the 12*btdc sounds right for timing - I think that is what Jeff told me - but don't quote me.

Thanks for the advice and keep it coming!

An aside - I assume they only make after market aluminumn manifolds for 4bbl carbs not 2 bbls.
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Old 09-06-2008, 08:50 AM   #70
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Wink Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Last things first...

The rpt aluminum manifold is only manufactured in a 4v configuration, for the 345/392 application there is a spreadbore version...and a squarebore version mounting flange available.

The squarebore version could be used with a 2v carb of the proper configuration if an adapter is also incorporated. In fact, I'll be doing just that in the near future on my 392 as I play around with various performance/economy induction system and ignition system variations.

The adapter would add about 3/4" overall height to the system, so careful selection of an aftermarket air cleaner would allow that combo to fit under the hood of the sii with the oem body position.

Would a 2v carb on the rpt manifold provide any performance/milage increase? Who knows, it hasn't been tried yet afaik! But we will sometime this fall!

If I had to do my personal rpt manifold install all over again, I would use the spreadbore version. Mike Ismail tried to talk me into that but since I'm heavily vested in squarebore carbs and all, I declined. That was stoopid on my part! With the myriad number of adapters out there that also serve as heat dams, if I'd used spreadbore, then any carb combo would be feasible now and in the future!

12*btdc base timing is the perfect starting point for performance tuning of the 304/345 motors, a 392 can't use that much advance! And that is with oem compression ratio and on "regular" grade fuel.

A round figure for the ihon/Holley 2300 centerhung carb conversion kit is $500 plus shipping (approx $15). And that price includes a custom-installed electric choke kit which no other vendor does for the customer! In base form, that carb is only available with a manual choke configuration. And it will be jetted and all adjustments made as close as can be for your application, you would have to make the final idle mixture and idle speed adjustments based upon your engine needs! Same as on an oem carb.

This setup is not "smog legal" in any form, and cannot be made smog-legal in the state in which you reside! Disclaimer: this conversion kit is for off highway use only!

no carburetor setup can effectively deal with the range of operational altitude that you describe without jetting changes. But a proper setup, using a two stage power valve (Holley modular carb only) can certainly make the setup usable. And I promise...if it's set up for best drivability at your residential altitude, it won't be optimum for say 7,000ft. And visaversa! But it can be "usable"! Can't have it both ways at the same time!

For determining the blaster II ignition coil resistance...simply use an accurate vom and place one probe on the positive terminal, and the other probe on the negative terminal. Then write down the resulting reading! A digital instrument is far more accurate for doing this since the resistance value is extremely low!

Do exactly the same thing regarding the ballast resistor you have. Those items do not have any kind of "polarity" so just check between the two terminals. Write down and post that figure also.

There are several different oem wiring configurations that were used in Scout II from inception through about 1977. Some of the differences are not shown in the wiring schematics in the service manuals! But I can talk ya through exactly how to wire the system properly if in fact it currently is not. Your wiring harness May have been configured to use both a point-distributor system and an oem gold box system, obviously yours was since it has the gold box connectors you describe. And some sii rigs were config'd with the prestolite electronic sparkmaker oem also, some had gold box...wiring is different for each!

And you need to verify that currently the coil feed to the positive terminal is or is not a resistive wire element. The oem resistive wire element will be an "ivory" color vinyl insulation on a "stiff" inner twisted conductor (iconel-type material, not copper wire), with a woven fiberglas overbraid for heat protection. Strip back the outer wiring loom material and verify that wire all the way back to the bulkhead connector!

Once we know exactly what your configuration is now, then that will determine what we do next!

For the record, it doesn't matter what oem setup is claimed to be in any service reference, what matters is exactly what the rig in question is running now! This stuff is 30+ years old, no telling what has been done with it in the past as it passes from po to po!

All this discussion is something that must be addressed when doing any non-oem ignition work or conversions! For instance, if someone installed a dui distributor/system and tried to feed it with the resistor wire, the results would not be pretty! And same for your prestolite electronic sparkmaker!

My suggestion??? Right now let's make sure your ignition system is optimized, that must be in the bag before making any changes to the induction system! Otherwise, we're back to the shotgun approach.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:25 PM   #71
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

First, from whom do I order the Holley 2300 and discuss the specifics for setting it up so I can get that ball rolling. Not worried about smogging as my model no longer requires that to register it. I prefer the truck run well in the hills and will compromise performance in the valley for trouble free off-roading.

I purchased a vom meter from kragen and did what you said to do on the coil and all I got was a reading of 1 and it was set to read to the o.1 decimal. I think I wasted my money. I will drop by a shop and get a better reading asap.

I think I have the resistive wire you described (after reading it for the 10th time, I think I finally understand what you are talking about). I will verify that to the bulkhead and post that info.

I don't believe I have a gold box...have heard and read alot about them, but don't know what they are. Again, I am not well versed in this stuff. I prefer to be told what the best setup is and do that and not play around too much.

Another thing, I have read some of your posts about using an egr blocking plate. What does that accomplish?

Thanks!
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:30 AM   #72
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Ok got...

Call Jeff/ihon and discuss the 2300 conversion kit and get the pricing...I can't do that for ya. Once ya place an order, Jeff will call me and turn on the process, then I'll set the kit up for you. I now know enough about what you are doing to set the carb up accordingly.

From the time the order is placed, it takes about a week to make everything happen and receive the kit.

I put together all the pieces just like ya see in that other thread, that item has not yet been entered into the online store but will be soon. You will receive one box dropshipped from me with everything ya need in the box, and a copy of your invoice from ihon just like you would find when Jeff ships parts from his location. The carb will have already been set up, the throttle ball stud will have a custom piece that allows your existing tranny "kickdown" to mount right up, all you will need to do is adjust the throttle cable and then the kickdown once everything is mounted...very important!

The idle mixture screws will be set to allow normal starting/idle quality. You will have to of course adjust the idle mixtures for your locale/engine, and possibly adjust the electric choke for your engine, very simple to do, I'll talk ya through all that! Once ya go up into the nosebleed altitude, then ya can quickly re-adjust the idle mixtures and go play! Same thing when ya come back down the hill. No more trouble than checking the oil!

Eliminating the egr is an off road deal only (that's legal beagle-speak). It's not imperative that it's done, but is an "enhancement" for performance/drivability. Let's let it go at that! That carb does include a "ported" vacuum source that can operate the egr if a "tee" fitting is placed on the port. That is assuming your egr valve/system still actually works...that's a whole other story! That is the port on the passenger side of the metering block.

Sounds like the vom ya got doesn't have the resolution ya need for doing real work! The dvom discussed in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...-cold-one.html

Is an excellent tool for any user! Ya don't need a "graphing" dvom, just a basic unit to use around the house/shop that has decent resolution and is "auto-ranging".

If you can post some wide and tight pics of your engine bay, it would really help to see what all ya got going on! The "gold box" ignition system has exactly that...a "gold" (or maybe silver!) electronic module (about 3" x 5") mounted on the firewall near the hood latch system. Has a harness with several wires coming out of it. That is the control unit...the pickup/trigger system for it is mounted inside the distributor, under the cap and rotor.

For several years, the actual engine bay wiring harness had both wiring for a breaker point ignition system (the resistor wire) and the "gold box". The prestolite electronic distributor came much later in the production cycle, around '77>'78 and was not used on all Scout II versions, thus we find the three distinct types of ignition systems! There was much carryover however in the wiring harnesses themselves, just several "unused" connectors that allowed for several scenarios.
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Old 09-24-2008, 12:58 PM   #73
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Red face Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Can anyone tell me where I might find an airhorn gasket for the 2210c the reman kit didnt have one and the local oil and neon lite stores cant help either. Thanks brad
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:22 PM   #74
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Fel-pro bags those up in individual paks. I'll have to do some research for the number though.

Do I need to got try out the new circle cutter I just bought to go into my gasket making tool kit? If I ahd any of those I'd dam shore send one...but I don't! But I can whip some out int e next few days if ya can't find the fel-pros locally.

Have the partmonkee do a look up for an air horn-to-air cleaner gasket for a '78 chrysler product with a 318/360 two barrel carb.
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Old 09-25-2008, 02:26 PM   #75
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Default Re: Holley 22XX Series Carb Stuff

Thanks man , will have em look it up that way and see what I come up with will post the # if I get one thanks again
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