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Old 12-13-2009, 05:10 PM   #76
Tom Price
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Michael,

thanks for the links!! I had been to this site, but somehow missed the instructions. I spent some time on the site, good stuff!

In one of the articles called the technical library, it states that the carb supplied with the judson model #190 kit did not have enough "pot". This May be a carburetor term or it May be short for potential. It went on to say that mr. Judson's own mb 190 sl had a "fish" carburetor installed. Any idea what a fish carb is?

As for the "ring" on the top of the carb, it must be press fit as I see no screws to mount it. The only screw I see in the vicinity is inside the throat of the carb. The "air horn" is one of the parts mentioned on the parts list, but my bet (after reading the instructions) is they are calling the air horn the bonnet. What is the od of the area where the air cleaner / bonnet must attach? Can you post a picture of the adaptor that you have?

I have written dominic to see what he did for the air cleaner / bonnet. I wrote to judson quite some time ago with no reply. I have also written the judson registry to see if they can help. Maybe some of the vw items will be the correct size?

Robertc,

mine does not appear to have a return line. It looks like the marvel mystery oil for this judson is used to lube the sc and the top end of the engine. I have yet to see a judson without an oiler.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:06 PM   #77
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

A marvel oiler is designed for the contents to be inhaled by the engine and consumed in the combustion chamber. Those devices went away right after positive crankcase ventilation systems became mandatory by the feds around 1961 in the u.s. Market. In the case of the judson unit, the only way they could be lubricated was with the marvel setup.

A turbo must have a pressure-fed lubrication system, just like an air compressor system on a medium/heavy duty truck for air brake and accessory operation. The turbine setup in a turbocharger spins at a far greater rpm than the rotor or impeller set in a supercharger driven by the crankshaft in either under-drive or over-drive config. And a turbo...by design...reclaims and converts a tremendous amount of heat!

All ihc-produced I-4 and sv cylinder heads have a drilled/tapped/plugged port in one end which is for an oil return line for an air compressor-equipped engine app.

Don't know about that "pot" terminology in regards to this system??? But...when I first realized that these huffers used the 1904 mixer, I thought then that it was a strange choice of carb...but they were dirt cheap and plentiful at that point in time. The stromberg 48 and 97 mixers were considered to to be the hot ticket in a similar carb back then!

A "fish" carburetor is just that, fish was the brand name! Basically, a clone of a Holley 1904. Same kind of concept as what we have today in a "barry grant" dominator clone of the Holley modular series mixers.

fish carb stories

At this time, it appears the fish has been reborn?:

the fish carburetor manufactured by the brown carburetor company

If you look at all the various vehicles that the judson system was marketed for, you can see that these were not an upgrade that enhanced engine performance to any great extent. For the most part, these vehicle/engine combos were very utilitarian , in many cases, the actual vehicles were extremely under-powered, these were the very first econoboxs way before that term ever existed. And even the "sports car" variations of that era used the same engines as the utility sedans, maybe with an increase in compression ratio, a slightly "hotter" camshaft, and multiple carburetion.

Keep in mind...europe was still emerging from wwii after 10>12 years, the motor vehicle industry was just beginning to come to life and exports of these vehicles to the u.s. Were still in infancy. A freakin' citroen 2cv was dangerous to take out of the neighborhood! A renault dauphine was somebody's cruel joke, same for the first beetles (30hp)! But then along came the 948cc austin motor that grew into the other variations for mg, et al, then the german Ford stuff, then the cooperized mini...and suddenly an entire hot rod/muscle car era dawned...euro-style!

Judson's "competiton" in the u.s. Marketplace was provided by mcculloch superchargers. The stuff they did oem for Ford, studebaker (even the chev corvair) was pure performance-oriented, had nothing to do with enhancing drivability. But the development of the "affordable" small turbochargers for the so-called domestic "compact" market (olds f85, IH Scout 80, corvair spider, etc.) killed the supercharger market since they were less costly to produce and did not have to have an elaborate drive mechanism such as Ford used. Mcculloch later evolved into the paxton system of centrifugal blowers.

the history of paxton automotive | paxton superchargers

A "gmc" blower is based upon the so-called "rootes" design. The judson is a rotary vane design, much like modern, high rpm air conditioning compressors used in the mobile hvac industry.

I f you go to the beginning of this thread and look closely at the pic in post #2, you will see the oil bath air cleaner adapter mounted on that example of a 1904. That one has an IH-pattern throttle lever/choke actuator, not the Ford-type.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:22 PM   #78
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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robertc,

mine does not appear to have a return line. It looks like the marvel mystery oil for this judson is used to lube the sc and the top end of the engine. I have yet to see a judson without an oiler.

Thanks,
Tom
No, I realized that after using michael's links to "educate" myself. "thought" it might be for top-end "oiling"..

Michael, thanks for the edification / illumination / education of things I vaguely recall / did not know

off topic -- what is wrong with a 2cv??? When hitchhiking in europe in 1968, I got a ride in one from dijon, france to geneva, switzerland -- quite "quaint" even at the time..., though, he did not drive it on the "freeway"... He took the "back roads"...

And, I got a ride in a renault daphine convertible (actually, it might have been called a caravelle(?)) -- crammed behind the 2 front seats... In italy

best ride --- citroen ds21 in denmark -- made GM / American cars seem "out of date"...

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Old 12-20-2009, 11:38 AM   #79
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Michael,

are the stromberg or fish carburetors worth pursuing in your opinion? Yes, it looks like the fish will be remade, but it is a very expensive piece. An expert on judsons said that another "upgrade" is a weber 32/36. He did not specify the benefits of a weber, but did mention that it would need an adaptor to work. Space, actually height, is already an issue for this setup, so adding a spacer May not be an option. Do you do work on the strombergs, fish, or webers? What benefits do they offer?

Luckily in the mercedes case, the utilitarian 190 used a different engine than the sporty (at least sporty looking) 190sl. Back in the 80's I purchased a head for a 190, thinking they were the same, and upon receipt saw the significant differences. The 190sl was still not very "powerful", but the judson was reported to add 40% more power. Much better than stock! And even if it does not add a great deal of power, it looks cool as hell!!!!

Great links!! I remember that paxton also made a kit for the mb 190sl. I have read about them, but have yet to see one on a car.

Looking at post #2, I now understand! I do not have one of these. Yet another thing to add to my search! Let me know if you know anyone that May have one of these. Dominick got back with me. The only suggestion he had did not turn up anything. Still waiting for judson to return my email. Still lookin'.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 12-20-2009, 04:39 PM   #80
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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Originally Posted by robertc View Post
no, I realized that after using michael's links to "educate" myself. "thought" it might be for top-end "oiling"..

Michael, thanks for the edification / illumination / education of things I vaguely recall / did not know

off topic -- what is wrong with a 2cv??? When hitchhiking in europe in 1968, I got a ride in one from dijon, france to geneva, switzerland -- quite "quaint" even at the time..., though, he did not drive it on the "freeway"... He took the "back roads"...

And, I got a ride in a renault daphine convertible (actually, it might have been called a caravelle(?)) -- crammed behind the 2 front seats... In italy

best ride --- citroen ds21 in denmark -- made GM / American cars seem "out of date"...
A citreon 21 makes most amurikin cars built today look out of date also. Those rides were extremely hi-tek, too bad they were "made in france" though. Didn't need a jack if ya had a flat, just push a button and the broke wing would rise off the ground so ya could swap wheels after removing the single "quick change" wheel retainer (kinda like a knock-off wheel). Double action air suspension/cylinder somewhat along the lines of a mcpherson strut.

The caravelle was to renault what the karmen ghia was to vw. A plain old dauphine sedan with a body. Rear engine/rear drive (water-cooled) in-line four with the radiator behind the back seat and facing the "firewall".
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:02 PM   #81
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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michael,

are the stromberg or fish carburetors worth pursuing in your opinion? Yes, it looks like the fish will be remade, but it is a very expensive piece. An expert on judsons said that another "upgrade" is a weber 32/36. He did not specify the benefits of a weber, but did mention that it would need an adaptor to work. Space, actually height, is already an issue for this setup, so adding a spacer May not be an option. Do you do work on the strombergs, fish, or webers? What benefits do they offer?

Luckily in the mercedes case, the utilitarian 190 used a different engine than the sporty (at least sporty looking) 190sl. Back in the 80's I purchased a head for a 190, thinking they were the same, and upon receipt saw the significant differences. The 190sl was still not very "powerful", but the judson was reported to add 40% more power. Much better than stock! And even if it does not add a great deal of power, it looks cool as hell!!!!

Great links!! I remember that paxton also made a kit for the mb 190sl. I have read about them, but have yet to see one on a car.

Looking at post #2, I now understand! I do not have one of these. Yet another thing to add to my search! Let me know if you know anyone that May have one of these. Dominick got back with me. The only suggestion he had did not turn up anything. Still waiting for judson to return my email. Still lookin'.

Thanks,
Tom
I'd say in your case, the fish or stromberg would be of no benefit other than the "wow" factor (mainly the fish)! Strombergs used to be layin' around in junkpiles everywhere, but they are a cult item now with the retro-rodders and rat-rodders.

You are exactly right, the judson target market was the very utilitarian "compact" cars that were beginning to revolutionize the American public's car-buying habits! Alotta difference in trying to herd a 36hp beetle down some cart path in bavaria vs. Winding one out on the predecessors to the interstate hiway system in the western u.s.!

As for the weber...I'm trying to fall in love with the 32/36 progressive...but so far I'm coming up short. I've just spent the better part of three days at the carb bench doin' a slew of 1904, couplea Holley 2300, a thermoquad and trying to make a weber dgv work worth shit.

My entire day today was spent running three different 1904 carbs to verify performance before shipping out. Then I installed the weber on the mule motor using the crapola adapter (I have several of those) most folks use to adapt to a single hole intake manifold. Right now, I'm not impressed at all!

More regarding the weber mixer is in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...ld-rework.html

And tonite, I'll update this thread regarding what I've learned about the webers over the last several days:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...rburetion.html

My suggestion for an action plan for ya would be:

I have a 1904 carb ready to go and boxed for ya if you decide ya want it. Tested and jetted like we discussed previously. With that unit we know that when ya mount the judson and work through all the glitches you will encounter, at least the carb won't be a tuning issue.

Then you send me your current 1904 for a core against the one we have for ya. I'll rebuild at my leisure and "hold" it for you on the shelf . If you need it back, then we'll treat it as an outright purchase.

This way, you are keeping a minimum investment in this deal in order to "make run".

Once I finally get a handle on this weber stuff (there are many different weber mixers along with many other mixers that could do the job), we can deal with that with either a new one (very easy to obtain), or maybe a reconditioned unit.

I can see several issues with "adapting" a 32/36 weber to your judson set right now, I just don't see the benefit of complicating things at this point, ya need to make it a driver first! Then down the line we can do many different thing with the carb...including a larger 1904 or a Holley 1920 (or even a 1940).

If you want to pursue a fish (a vintage version), Robert kenney has close ties with socal speed shop, maybe they could kick one up but ya better be prepared to step up to the plate!
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Old 12-20-2009, 05:32 PM   #82
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Can you tell me the cost of the 1904 that you built for me? Please price it both ways, outright purchase and the price if I supply a core.

I agree that I will go with what we know works first!

Thanks!
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:10 PM   #83
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Michael,

happy new year!!!

I never received any information on the price for the 1904 that you built for me. Could you please re-send it to me?

Thanks! Tom
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Old 01-13-2010, 09:19 AM   #84
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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michael,

happy new year!!!

I never received any information on the price for the 1904 that you built for me. Could you please re-send it to me?

Thanks! Tom
Hell Tom, I dropped the ball!

Jeff has the pricing for ya...call him at 530-268-0864 and discuss. I'm just the hired hand, Jeff handles the bean-count!

As soon as ya make a buy, Jeff will send me a packing slip and I'll get it out to ya by usps priority mail. It's sitting in the box now with your name on it!
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:28 PM   #85
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

I just got my rebuild kit for my 1904 ( on a 1957 International s110) and the needle valve is way longer then the original one. I got the whole assembly witht he kit so should I just change it all out or use the old needle valve? Thanks for the help.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:37 AM   #86
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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I just got my rebuild kit for my 1904 ( on a 1957 International s110) and the needle valve is way longer then the original one. I got the whole assembly witht he kit so should I just change it all out or use the old needle valve? Thanks for the help.
What is the brand and part number for the kit you acquired? Are you certain it's the correct kit for the application?

I've encountered this same thing before, the "long" needle/seat is used in a 1908, a similar but different carb. Sometimes the packaging gets mixed up when the kits are assembled. Some of the internal parts are the same, some are not.

I'll venture that your accelerator pump diaphragm in that kit is not correct either! It must match the old one exactly as to hole position and "length" of the plunger rod. There are at least three variations of that part, they do not interchange indiscriminately.

Post pics of the old and new pieces for more information.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:17 PM   #87
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

We talked earlier in this thread about hesitation on acceleration and possible accel pump issues (1904 carb). The accel pump looked decent, based on a simple visual of the fuel stream, but I didn't pursue the issue any further (since I was rebuilding everything). The engine is now rebuilt and I'm just starting on trying to make sure I get the most out of it.

What I notice right off, without even doing much test driving (still need a muffler!) is that the engine can't stand a healthy stomp on the gas while in neutral idling. If I stomp on the pedal the engine will drop away hard like it's going to die and then finally come back to life and rev up. Where do you think I should look? This seems similar to a hesitation on acceleration, but not quite the same since I'm not putting any load on it. Would it still be accel pump, or something else?

Thanks!
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:43 PM   #88
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

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we talked earlier in this thread about hesitation on acceleration and possible accel pump issues (1904 carb). The accel pump looked decent, based on a simple visual of the fuel stream, but I didn't pursue the issue any further (since I was rebuilding everything). The engine is now rebuilt and I'm just starting on trying to make sure I get the most out of it.

What I notice right off, without even doing much test driving (still need a muffler!) is that the engine can't stand a healthy stomp on the gas while in neutral idling. If I stomp on the pedal the engine will drop away hard like it's going to die and then finally come back to life and rev up. Where do you think I should look? This seems similar to a hesitation on acceleration, but not quite the same since I'm not putting any load on it. Would it still be accel pump, or something else?

Thanks!
That 1904 of yours was assembled and test run on March 19, 2008. I'm looking at the documentation and pics right now. Two years ago to the week!

If it has a strong, solid stream of discharge from the accelerator pump shooter when you operate the throttle lever, then it's working properly. However, during this period of time when the engine was inna basket, I have no doubt that fuel deterioration has taken place. That can result in "sticking" of the accel pump inlet and discharge check valves inside the main well. Those are not user accessible and must be extracted by removing the blocker plugs.

Also, the main well I put in your carb was a replacement from a donor that was in perfect condition, your original main well had the economizer poppet laying in the bottom of the fuel bowl when I tore it down. You should have a copy of the build sheet for that unit I sent to ya along with the carb, it outlines all the faults and corrections.

Incorrect idle mixture setting will also create a stumble when the throttle is rapidly opened under load.

Your carb version has the nylon accelerator pump actuator cam. Verify that the cam has not cracked and is "flexing" which prevents a full pump shot.

The "adjustment" for the accelerator pump is performed by moving the position of the operating rod on the throttle lever, and bending it (after removal) as needed. Once you have verified the discharge stream at the shooter nozzle and determine it's correct, then move the operating rod from the bottom hole where I placed it, to the upper hole on the throttle lever. Then verify that the throttle will open wot without binding. Doing that greatly increases the pickup point of the accel pump system providing a bigger shot much sooner.

Be very careful when diddling with that fragile nylon pump cam, they can break easily since they are over 40 years old! I do have a few new ones but you do not want to know the cost!!

The attached pic is your carb on the build stand showing the position of the accel pump link when I assembled it.

I don't remember which distributor your engine is running. But if the dwell and base timing are incorrect (retarded), the result will be severe hesitation when the throttle is winged.

The dwell factor for the Holley distributor (either version) is 52*. The dwell factor for the delco distributor is 72*, huge difference!!! Base timing is the same for either distributor application. I don't use a timing light on these engines, I do the "power timing" deal described in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...er-timing.html
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:25 PM   #89
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Thanks for the help. For some reason I didn't think of timing for this particular symptom. I just had the timing set somewhere that seemed reasonable, but it turns out it could handle way more. I don't know what the deal is, but I cranked that thing up to almost 25 degrees before I could get it to knock. The throttle acts much happier now. Still not much "get up and go" on this thing though. I suppose it's just kind of heavy for a 4 banger - though I have no top, gutted interior, no heater, not much of anything. It's about as light as it can be short of removing the doors and tailgate (which I May do to stop the rattling).

I just read your power timing thread again, and that's what I did, though I didn't think to readjust the idle mixture. I'll go do that now. Any trick there other than just turning it in until it runs rough, then backing out a little?

By the way, is it normal for these carbs to whistle at idle? Something in there is making a high pitched whistle and I'm 90% sure it's just the air through the carb. I can hear it at stop signs clear as day (no top).
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:48 AM   #90
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Idle mixture is adjusted after all other adjustments are locked down. Simply diddle the screw for best idle quality.

Carb whistle?? Yeah, that's pretty common...most noticeable when no air cleaner is mounted or one of the aftermarket open element air cleaners is installed.

I believe it's caused by air movement past that roll pin that is pressed into the choke shaft ya see when you look down the throat. That pin is a design element that creates a disruption in airflow adjacent to the point where the main metering circuit is dumping metered liquid into the air stream.
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