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Old 12-10-2009, 12:15 AM   #61
RobertC
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Re metal "id" tags on oem carbureters:

most (all?) carbs of the 60's had these "tags" originally.

They were "stamped" "sheet metal" -- and I am sure they disappeared with the "first" rebuild done by a commercial "rebuilder".

In my personal experience (corvairs), the metal tag had a stamped GM part number for the carb... (actually oem or replacement carb)

as indicated by michael, Holley carbs have a stamped a Holley list no (and a nanufacturer part number) into the metal casting...

From your "viewpoint" for the metal tag, the only thing I can suggest is check out mercedes restoration / club web sites to see if they are "anal" enough to have reproduced the tags for "full bore" restorations...
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:16 PM   #62
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Whatta fantastic project Tom!!!

And...you mean to say...the judson setup you have is the same one pictured in the shot Robert kenney took at the bakersfield hot rod reunion several weeks ago??? Exactly what is the chances of that pic resulting in your hooking up with us??!!

Now I wanna judson setup of my own...just so I can put it on the dining table and look at what real hot rod schnizz from the pages of mechanics illustrated in 1963 can do for my flashbacks!

As for the "Ford" connection...the Holley 1904 was introduced to the oem world around 1951 as a mixer for the much more common in-line six cylinder engines of that era. And at the time...Holley corporate had a very strong connection with Ford that goes way back in history. Same for the Holley oem-supply connection with International Harvester (as well as with zenith). During that same era, the GM family was closely aligned with rochester, thus the family connection on the GM side.

The glass bowl version of the 1904 was a very unique product that allowed the actual fuel level in the bowl to be monitored in real time. In many cases...that variation of the 1904 known as the "visi-flow" mixer was used on many Ford apps, as well as other specific oem engines. But my research shows that they were never oem on any IH-related products but they continuously turn up since folks have rejuvenated boneyard versions of these carbs over time.

And normally, the visi-flow version used a cast zinc "extension" between the bowl and the main body to increase controlled fuel volume in the bowl, no doubt needed when those carbs were used on engine apps with increased volumetric efficiency (ve).

I've been following 1904-related crap on ebay for years now, I've yet to see anything there that is "honest" and "correct" regarding these carbs! And the visi-flow units I always look for are all butchered with essential components missing! And about 50% of the 1904 cores I get for rebuild are "assembled" with boneyard parts mixing ihc stuff with Ford stuff. Sometimes that works, most of the time it does not unless ya know what other mods to perform. Ford apps of these carbs are far more common in the marketplace...keep in mind that the total production of all ihc engines that used the 1904 mixer over the years is a pimple on the ass of just one year of production of Ford motors world-wide! Then ya toss in all the versions that were used on the "small" 144/170 Ford motors in the compacts (falcon/comet/mustang/econoline/etc.) beginning in 1961

as for the judson "kit", I've yet to kick up any info regarding exactly what version of the 1904 was originally included in the kit. But it does seem that the kit always used the 2-3/4" stud spacing throttle body, which has the smallest throttle bore and venturi diameter that was available in these carbs. It May well be that judson was able to purchase the 1904 carb direct from Holley at that point and it just so happened that the 2-3/4" carb met the fuel delivery requirements for the blower system and was the least expensive version on the table!!!

As for the "dent" in the air horn on your carb, if you don't see a reason for it regarding the installation of the judson-supply air horn adapter, then I'd have to say that it was either dropped or something fell on it! The cast zinc is relatively soft and malleable...up to a point where it simply cracks! I "might" be able to fix that but it's really not worth the risk since it will never show when in use.

I sure wish now that I had been paying more attention to this stuff when I was a kid instead of trying to find an ohv head conversion for my model a!

As for the metallic id tags used by "some" manufacturers on "some" carbs...those tags were a requirement in the supply contracts Ford had with their vendors. Holley had always done a nice job of permanently stamping the main body with id info, but they had to include the tag as a vendor requirement for Ford. You won't find any similar tags on the Holley stuff supplied to ihc (right up through the end of ihc light duty vehicle production).

However...in the case of rochester, carter, zenith, etc. Those tags were a part of their "system". In many cases it was only the tags that identified a particular carb app, since the tags usually disappeared the first time the carbs were rebuilt in the shops, today we deal with carbs that must be positively id'd in other manners, lending legs to all these urban legends we see regarding carburetors and "matching numbers"!!

For instance...an oem carter thermoquad as supplied to ihc did have a metallic tag which carried the carter number along with the ihc part number, those are very rare these days, I have only two examples of those but I have several cores that have the remnants of the tag still present under a screw head.

The 1904 I have designated for your project is on the bench now and will be completed and set up to test by the end of the day. If you don't want it, then it simply goes into the inventory...but it is exactly identical to the carb you have posted about in all aspects. All I can't do is install a main jet that is the same as what you have now, so I would need ya to pull the bowl off, remove the jet (it's very simple!), and give me the number...otherwise it's just a guess as to what jet to install. When I run these carbs on my test motor, the jet size reflects what the carb will eventually be installed on, ihc 152, 196, six cylinder 241, etc. As I have all the setup data for those apps.

That carb has no list number present...when repairing the main bodies due to the very common warpage issue, those numbers normally disappear. And in fact, if I end up reconditioning your existing carb and the main body is warped (I already know it is!), then the numbers on that one will disappear also.

Once I complete this carb, I will post pics here so you can see for yourself it's identical except for the throttle lever extension for the judson kit.

Fuel bowls...we have on the shelf three new bowls that are nos ihc parts, original finish is perfect and they are in the original boxes. The inclusion of one of these bowls will increase the total cost by $45 over the "normal" price. However, the bowl I have on the mixer I'm proposing for you right now, has a mint bowl with it on the inside, not a single spec of abnormality in the classic Holley chromate surface treatment...how rare... As most of the carbs have seen water internally over time! The exterior of the bowl has been cleaned to flawless condition (as is all the stuff I do, I don't use any abrasive blasting process, all cleaning is done by hand and chemicals) but the chromate finish is pretty much worn off over time (and cleaning). So it would be a near-perfect match to the carb I see in your pics!

Jeff and I are revising the pricing scheme now for all carburetor-related stuff we offer. And there is a difference in price of course on an out-right purchase as compared to an exchange carb with a core involved. I know you will find the costs are very reasonable as compared to any other vendor for these products...plus with us you receive unlimited technical assistance with the stuff...even on a benz!
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:41 PM   #63
Tom Price
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Yo michael,

thanks for your enthusiasm!!

It is the picture / comments about this supercharger that got me here, but upon further review, it is not my supercharger. The dent in the carb is not in the same place and mine has been freshly rebuilt within the last few months. I am confident that the jsc in the picture is a model #190 for a 190sl. I would really like to find out who has it so we can compare notes. Does any one know the owner's contact information? What was the asking price? Can you tell anything about that carburetor in the picture? How does it compare to mine?

Yeah, I like your idea!! I used to have my tri-power on the coffee table as a conversation piece. Since we moved, I have yet to find the box that it is in!!!

Great history! I am learning a lot!!

You can decide if the dent is worth fixing when you get it.

I am positive that I want it the carb you have for me...just have to make sure I can afford it!!! I have attached some more pictures of my supercharger and the carb, some with the bowl removed. If you describe where the main jet is and any precautions to removing it, I will do it. I am fairly good with tools, just don't claim to be an expert at carburetors. Spent a few years working for your uncle wrenchin' on airframes / jet engines. They did a good job of limiting the number of carburetors on those things!!!! If it is the jet below the bowl in the close up picture, it says 64. Does that number sound reasonable?

Is it possible to re-stamp the numbers into the carb after rebuilding? If not, how will my grandsons know which kit to buy when rebuilding the carburetor in 2044??

Which piece is the "throttle lever extension"? Is it possible to make an additional one or is it something easily removed and put back on?

I will most likely go with the cheaper bowl that you have chosen. Does the one you have chosen say Holley? Can you post pictures of both just to compare?

I look forward to your pricing. It is nice that you and Jeff are lowering your pricing scheme!! that is so rare these days.

Went shopping with the wife tonight at meijer's. Could not find any "bacon" products. I'll keep looking.

Have fun,
Tom
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 001.jpg (57.7 KB, 400 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 002.jpg (52.1 KB, 475 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 003.jpg (54.2 KB, 316 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 004.jpg (53.7 KB, 336 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 005.jpg (57.3 KB, 471 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 006.jpg (50.1 KB, 348 views)
File Type: jpg Judson Model 190 007.jpg (32.0 KB, 314 views)
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:48 AM   #64
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

We can keep bs'n about this stuff for days Tom! And obviously when ya punch in "1904" in any search engine, the ihon forum stuff is normally a first hit. That in turn is bringing many new folks to us (such as yourself!).

Lemme go down the list and hopefully I answer all your qustions...

First off, yes...you did id the main jet correctly. So the carb I've prepped for ya has a #64 main installed now. Those jets are exactly the same identical part currently marketed by Holley, and the sizing system has never changed since the beginning. Some are manufactured in brass (older stock), later production are done in steel (to counteract the negative corrosive nature of methanol/ethanol, or today's e10 fuels).

The main jet simply screws in/out with a screwdriver that fits the slot properly. A major issue with these is a main jet which is "loose" allowing liquid fuel bypass, that is caused by the expansion/contraction of the dissimilar metals in the carb as it goes through it's routine "heat" cycles. If it's "tight" from the beginning, it will stay tight though.

I can't re-stamp the numbers on the carb body in the same manner that Holley did. But...don't worry about your grandkids...worry about yoreself now. We'll be dam fortunate to even be able to own an old junker like we play with if the current gummint remains in power much longer!

There is only one decent carb kit available currently for these mixers anyway, and who knows how long that will continue?? I do know that my supplier tells me that every time they re-order direct from wells, they get "questioned" about "why" are they buying so many! We also have an excellent source that can supply this stuff, but the cost is somewhat greater and they only do wholesale, not sell to the public.

Following are individual posts that address each item, that way this stuff is more "searchable" for future customers to find!

But...I see that you did get the marvel oiler with your system!!! Another piece of history that was a part of the judson deal, don't know if it was imperative on every kit install, but those were a very common add-on sold off the shelf in any parts house back in the day!

This shot is one that Jeff at ihon donated to our club for a raffle item a few years back, I see these fairly often on IH stuff up here that were installed on rigs from the early/mid-60's.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:57 AM   #65
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Here is a shot of a 1904 throttle lever/body as used on "most" (not all) ihc applications. This is the throttle body that I used on your fresh carb. These are very problematic in that where the lever is swedged to the brass shaft, they tend to loosen over time. So that is something I also "fix" in some manner when doing a rebuild, they all are crappy!

I'm just posting this pic so you and others can see some of what makes a "Ford" version of a 1904 different from some other apps!
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:06 AM   #66
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

And this shot is the completed 1904 I have for you before installing for testing.

Notice the completely different throttle lever arrangement. And most especially, where the idle speed adjuster interfaces with the choke lever/fast idle cam. You cannot mix an IH throttle lever with the Ford choke lever if the "length" of the choke shaft itself is not a match.

Not all Ford versions of the 1904 were made like this, I have no methodology for identifying this stuff by list number, that is why I always need pics of what anyone has in order to determine "what" they got to begin with!

On that same note, compare this throttle lever with the modded version you have now. Appears that in the past, either judson or "someone" arc-welded that extension mount to the oem Ford lever. I'd say judson because you can see the same thing done on other examples of these parts I've found on the 'net. That could be done in a much neater manner though without welding!

In this shot, you can see that I drilled/tapped the throttle shaft and installed a stainless buttonhead to secure the throttle lever to the shaft, this one won't be giving any more problems! I'd do the same to your current carb when I build it.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:15 AM   #67
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Please disregard what appears to be "rust" in all these pics I post! That effect is caused by the lighting on one of my benches, and the flash built-in to this camera. I ain'ta photog and don't wanna be...I only care about content and if the pic tells the story! I assure you, this (and any other carb) is spotless..but the steel parts on the Holley stuff back then was an oxide finish, not a cad-plate kinda stuff) and it rusts terribly over time. I clean that up using an abrasive process, but it will rust again...I sometimes use a clear acrylic spray coating on these mixers that works ok for a rust preventative as long as ya don't get carb cleaner on 'em!

Here's a shot of the exterior of the two bowls I have available, you decide which one ya want.

I "think" that the nos bowl was originally cast for a tractor application that had a drain plug for the bowl. Or...it was used to mount an "adjustable" main metering system ("needle valve") so that the carb main metering could be adjusted for use with either gasoline or kerosene (or "drip gas"). So it is not an oem bowl for this exact carb if that matters.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:17 AM   #68
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

This shot shows the interior of both bowls, the used one is perfect, no water damage whatsoever and no warp!

The nos bowl should be saved for someone who is doing/needing a perfect carb resto and has a matching main body of similar condition. I have those on occasion, but none right now.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:20 AM   #69
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

The main well for this carb is in perfect condition, though it has not been reconditioned by Robert since it does need his repair!

It has been totally disassembled as far as the main wells are concerned, along with having the accel pump inlet and outlet checks cleaned/replaced. This is the last good one I have on hand, all the rest are reconditioned units on the shelf at ihon.

By the way...Robert's background involves workin' with them flyin' wings too! So ya know he does purdee work! But he's kinda schizoid...works on junkiron along with high-end street rod stuff and vintage funny cars! But his junkiron is nice!

I'll have a shot of this carb actually running later tonite, I got the sonjamobile coming back in the shop now for another carb swap and we gotta git that done before the snow and ice hit in the next few hours.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:47 PM   #70
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Here's the test run of the carb I'm pimpin' to ya Tom.

As ya can see, with a operational test inlet fuel pressure of 5psi, the actual fuel level is currently set to "high" (thus the note to myself written on the bowl).

When it comes off for the final install of the bowl you choose, the fuel level will be lowered before shipping.

This is simply a quickee install I do on my mule motor, no throttle cable connected, no choke cable connected, and a jury-rig throttle return spring for safety.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Here's the other side showing the linkage and all the busy work.

As ya can see, the el cheeepo fuel pressure regulator and gauge are set for 5psi. The pump on this motor will actually produce nearly 6psi...but the Holley-spec inlet pressure for these carbs is 5.5psi.

This is the last carb that will ever run on this intake manifold setup. Within a few days, a fresh, highly-modded intake manifold set up for a weber dgv carb will go on for final testing and leakcheck. Eventually, that intake system will be moved over to the 152 stroker (Robert calc's it to be a 172) I've got in progress right now, this motor is a 196c.I. Version.

Now if...I can kick up a judson kit for the IH motor, that trumps everything!

No...the sight glass fuel bowl is not available...Robert fabbed two of 'em and they are both gonna stay on the left coast! But I hear he can dupe 'em all day long for $250 a pop or trade even-up for a judson kit???

This carb will be run one more time tomorrow after an overnite sit, then removed and drained, and after the actual bowl is installed, it'll have some "preservative" introduced to the guts.
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:15 AM   #72
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Looks good!!! I think I will go with the bowl that is on the left. That appears to be the same as the one I have on the carb now. Clear acrylic spray sounds good, I don't like rust.

The top of this one looks different than the one I have. Will the air cleaner I have fit or will I need another one? The one I currently have has a 2.5 inch inner diameter.

I will keep my eyes open for a judson unit for you. I am still searching for a judson model #190 bonnet and an original set of judson model #190 instructions, so there is no telling what I will find in the meantime! I am not certain, but I believe the oiler is mandatory to keep everything lubed properly.

Thanks, Tom
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:31 AM   #73
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

I forgot about mentioning that air horn setup Tom!

What you have on the current carb is a machined aluminum "ring". I don't know at this point how it's retained on the judson-converted carb...does it have a couple of set screws that insert from the side? Or does it appear to be a press-fit?? So that was either loose in the kit when received...or judson installed that ring on the carbs before putting them in the kit.

Anyway, I have no way of duplicating that, so you would need to transfer that part when ya swap carbs around. But I bet...Robert could be coerced into fabbing several hundred of those in exchange for a judson setup for his Scout 80!

Dominic asked the same questions, as he needed a replacement air cleaner system for his. That actual air cleaner is a simple aftermarket item that was real popular back in the day, nearly all of the engines equipped with the 1904 carbs used rather large "oil bath" air cleaners which certainly would not fit the very tight engine bays associated with the sports cars that were the target market for the judson stuff. And the air horn of the 1904 had an air cleaner "adapter" which was a separate item that clamped to that heavily-chamfered od of the air horn and had a single stud to retain the air cleaner assembly. I have a few of those adapters (they came in several different designs) and are very difficult to find now that have not been destroyed in an attempt to adapt a dry element air cleaner.

Once I explained to dom how that worked...he was able to source some air cleaner replacements from somewhere in his region without me having to ship him some...same for some other parts he needed...but those guys have to pay exorbitant prices for stuff like this...he was looking at the nylon accel pump cam replacements (used ones) in the us$150 range!!!! We now have a very few new ones available for $25.

The actual air cleaner (or at least something very similar inna aftermarket replica) can still be bought off the shelf at one of my local parts sources today, contains a paper filter element. But those simply clamp to the air horn...and without the oem air cleaner adapter...doing so is a problem. Many of the 1904 cores I see here have had some sort of jury-rig air cleaner set up, most retained by some elaborate application of bailing wire and screen door springs!

I just looked at your pics again to make sure I've covered everything. Regarding the throttle lever/arm on your current carb...I believe that it has been repaired by welding after it broke off at some point! Judson would not have done something like that as it would involve some very tedious work on a new carb before packing it in the kit. The actual extension piece that is mounted with the fasteners would be part of what they might have supplied, since it mounts directly to the two holes in the existing Ford-pattern throttle lever. That would be a very easy piece to fabricate...and maybe even improve upon the appearance. I have one additional Ford throttle lever currently (and another Ford-pattern carb core on it's way to me that May be scrapped for parts), so when I see your current carb for rebuild, I'll swap the levers if you desire.

I May have some time today to devote to researching this judson stuff in more detail. If I don't do stuff like this when it's a current topic, then I forgit all about it until it comes around again.

I'll be on the horn with Jeff Monday so I can explain what we're doing and he can price everything for ya.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:34 AM   #74
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom price View Post
I am not certain, but I believe the oiler is mandatory to keep everything lubed properly.
It depends on where the line(s) are routed -- and if there is a return line...

On turbo-charged corvair engines, engine oil is used to lubricate the bearing in the turbocharger (metal line from oil pressure switch area). The oil "drained" into the passenger side valve cover after "going thru" the bearing.

If the seal failed, it was major mosquito abatement time...
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:46 AM   #75
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Default Re: Holley 19XX Series Carb Stuff

Spend some quality time on dominick's website Tom and this will pop out after following some links:

judson 190 instructions

Wow...this is turning out to be a real history lesson and keeps my flashbacks goin'!

judson company, judson development company, judson res. & mfg. Co.
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