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Old 12-29-2008, 10:44 AM   #16
Uncle's Scout
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Actually I believe the ra-9 is a power lock so you should be good to go.

At some point I will have to drift by your place and see your cs up close. It really looks great in the photos.

Chris
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:24 PM   #17
RobertC
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

I am confused -- your orig factory LST picture above shows a ra23 4.88 w/p-lok se.

Did they change their minds on the assembly line and put in a ra9 which would not have a power-lok -- according to the "decoder" on superscoutspecialists site? And, left the "limited slip" stickers because they were already there?

From many years ago, I dimly recall (and dimly is the keyword) an "old wive's tale" that if you jack up the rear of the vehicle and rotate one wheel by hand (in neutral) and the other side (wheel / tire) rotates in the same direction that "it is limited slip".

But, the only way to really tell is pull the diff cover.... Unless you give the bom number on the axle to mm....
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #18
Michael Dimock
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Another way to test if it is a limited slip is to find the nearest slippery spot, rev it up, dump the clutch, and if both tires are spinning, then you have posi and if 1 tire spins then your open! or just have mr. Mayben check it for you. really nice Scout by the way!
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Old 12-29-2008, 06:14 PM   #19
Robert Kenney
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Chris,
here is a bit from my book regarding ra-xx.

the way I understand it. 14004 and 14014 are Dana 27 and 1409 and 14023 are Dana 44's. I know it is a 44 so only question is did they swap in sides? Based on the info they did.

Come by any time. If you want the old Scout ac stuff I can give it to you then. I think I emailed my phone.

Robert, I to am cornfuuzzed. when I changed the diff oil it looked like a pl carrier? Must have been out of ra 23's and dida swap on the line. I had the rear in the air at that time and it acted like it was open. That is why I bought the pl clutch kit from Mike. Figurin it was just wasted, I was going to rebuild it when I did the bearings and seals as pm.

Michael. What if I shear the axle hub key because it is 44 years old. it acts totaly open with the ass in the air.
ths closest slipery stuff is in the mountains and no way I am going to drive my topless Scout to the snow.

that just reads real creepy. never mind.

Thanks guys for the help.
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

As we've discussed many times line tickets can't be taken as gospel...only a guide to what "May" have been.

Many of you have line sets that have penciled-in scribblings. If the scribblings were done at the point of assembly, then the rig was taken "off-line" to a separate part of the assembly building (or a separate facility) and "finished"...most of the time that involved one-off kinda callouts, or very low production equipment installs. Many times it involved removing equipment and shipping a vehicle with some component not installed per dealer or fleet order.

Same thing at the delivering dealer point. If components were add/delete or upgraded at the dealer or fleet location, then the line set was "penciled", the changes noted, and then a copy was sent back to the originating assembly point so that the changes could be recorded and the line set was archived on microfilm (later microfiche).

I know of a fleet of travelettes/travelalls ordered up by a regional timber company up here that were delivered as "gliders"...no rear axles and some were completely axleless! That was because the end user added their own axle sets based upon their vocational needs.

Regarding the "tapered hub" Dana/spicer axle, it's the "taper" that transmits the force to the wheels(s). If the hub and the axle stub are in "matched" condition, then the key could be left out, if the nut is properly torqued, that seats the tapers and full strength is developed. Robertk knows this process well! If the taper is scruud up, then there will be no way to secure the hub to the axle stub no matter how tight ya go or if a tool steel key is used!

The axle stub and hub id (taper) for the d27 is somewhat smaller in dimension than the same items for a d44. And the d27 thread portion for the axle stub is 3/4", while the section for the d44 is 1".

To actually "observe" the action of a limited slip unit (either t-lok or p-lok), I remove both wheels on the same axle after the rig is up on stands. Then I rig a cheater through the wheel studs on the driver side to "stop" the hub/axle assembly from turning. Then use a torque wrench on the passenger side and rotate the hub nut forward and note the "breakaway" torque when the clutches slip in the ls diff. Continue to rotate the axle shaft observing the torque to continuously "slip" the clutches. The breakaway figure is not the important reading, the continuous torque reading is!

The torque readings to look for will vary depending upon if a p-lok or t-lok is under test, and also which axle (d27/d44/d60/etc.). It will also vary depending upon "how" the p-lok is assembled. I'd say a "nominal" number to look for is between 30ft./lbs. And 175ft./lbs.

Here's a shot of a tapered d44 with the hub restrained, I used a pipe threader for a cheater in this case. The p-lok in this rig is running about 155ft./lbs. The cheater in this position is set for torquing the axle nut...not for testing the ls diff!
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Old 12-29-2008, 08:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

And here's a shot of an actual tapered 19 spline d44 p-lok, 1963 vintage. The dawg hair ain't that old, it's recent stuff. Yeah...I did sterilize the pumpkin guts before putting it back together!
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Quote:
that seats the tapers and full strength is developed. Robertk knows this process well!
Here's a machinist's question: how would I get the tapers matched? My 69 came with a damaged hub/axle end, damaged from the former yokel not properly torqueing the nut. I replaced the axle with used, and sourced another hub. The deal is, from wear lines on the key and rust in the hub's bore; it appears there's some creep and fretting go'in on. Some bluing show'd there's some contact, but not to my liking. It still takes a hefty pull with the puller to get it to part, but from the looks of the key, the creep that's going on just ain't right.

Robert, yur rig is just outstanding!
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

For many years in building motorcycle race motors, I lapped the flywheel to the crank taper.

Then I assembled using loktite "stud and bearing" grade. I think that's now what they refer to as "high strength", we just called it "green".

For a full strength setup of loktite products like that, it's imperative to use the associated primer.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

I tried the lapping too. I even went as far as "power" lapping with the axle turning slowly in low gear and engine idling. I used a 180 grit to gently get 'er to seat. Stopping and checking with bluing. By the time I got what I would call an 80% contact, the hub was getting fer up the taper. Not way far, but a few threads on the nut farther. I figured the cast hub being softer, was more to getting the shaft's imperfect profile than a smooth taper on both; I was hoping to match the taper and not just that Shaft. As it is now, that hub can only go on that particular half shaft for a good fit and not have a lot of fretting. Greasing the rear wheel bearings fairly regularly has let me seen the taper and/or key wear. It's a way better fit than before the lapping in, but it's still fretting. The other side is in great condition as that side was not left loose. Locktite May be an option, but right now I don't need a torch to get the hubs off.
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:35 AM   #25
Robert Kenney
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
for many years in building motorcycle race motors, I lapped the flywheel to the crank taper.
Greg,
what mm wrote is pretty much your only choice. The shaft is probably ok, it is the inner hub surface that is deformed. That is more difficult to address but not impossible. Lap with fine (320 grit) tapping compound.

I worked at a ge apparatus service center for about a year. One major part of our business was to rebuild diesel locomotive traction motors. (600hp dc) the motors had a drive pinion gear say 10 inches in diameter and 8" long that was fit on a tapered section of the armature shaft. The fit was checked with dykem and hand lapped on the high areas using long strips of croakus cloth (shoe shine style). And re-witnessed. This went on for hours until a contact pattern was achieved that met pre existing standards.
The taper interface had to be absolutely free of any and all oils and residues. Mek and the like was used over and over maybe 10 times with special towels until we/they were happy it was clean.

The pinion was then induction heated and jacked into place flush with the end of the shaft. No other mechanical means of retaining the pinion were employed only the taper.

That is the long and short of it..

The torque a "dry fit" taper will endure is a function of only two things.

1) the taper interface clamping load or (determined by amount of stretch the ring (hub, pinion) is subject to.

2) the coefficient of friction of the interface (materials and surface finish)

surface area really is not a factor in the calculation. However (always a however) the contact pattern must be wide enough to enable a stable fit and not rock.
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Last edited by Robert Kenney; 12-30-2008 at 07:53 AM..
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:50 AM   #26
Robert Kenney
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Greg,
you posted again while I was typing and dealing with employees.

When you torque the hub on to the taper is the nut or washer bottoming on the end of the shaft taper? Take the nut off and look. You May not be generating enough clamping force. If you think that is a possibility add a washer so the hub has the ability to be forced on the taper unimpeded.

I have two hubs that were enlarged so the nut would bottom before reaching enough clamping load.
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Old 12-30-2008, 08:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Quote:
the fit was checked with dykem and hand lapped on the high areas
Thanks Robert, you resusitated some long forgotten memories. I've done that type of work on turbine generator journal bearings many many years ago. We didn't use crocus, but what we called cherry stones. I haven't run out of thread yet, but added a washer anyway as the nut was getting far from the cotter pin. I have a couple of used tapered axle shafts with scored or fretted tapers. Now that you've mentioned hand lapping the high spots,(strange I didn't think of this), I have hope that with getting the seal lands reground or sleeved, they can be restored to servicable use.
I guess it depends on the lapping compound vehicle, but hot water and soap is what I was taught to remove residuals. Solvents or kerosene won't do it. I wash the hubs in the sink when no one is looking
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:08 AM   #28
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Using loctite "green" on the taper will not impede hub removal at a later point. But for it to develop full capabilities ya must use primer.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

Thanks Mike. I have the red and primer, so green must be for removable? So it'll be a trip to industrial supply.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:17 AM   #30
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Default Re: Before and After of My Scout 80 CS

That is a beautiful rig Robert!!!
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