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Old 12-17-2008, 02:20 PM   #31
Jonsalter74
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thank you for the reply. When I got the transmission rebuilt the tranny worked great. I had it rebuilt by a professional shop. My Scout is a 74. I am resonably sure it is the original drive line (so said the people I bought it from) however I will verify the numbers and make sure. I have not checked the the shift cable however I had to pull the shift cable two weeks ago to get at the neutral switch. It shifted fine after I reinstaled it but possible it has sliped or come out of adjustment. Also I had the carb off and rebuilt it so maybe the kick down is out of adjustment as well. I will check both of these this week and see what I come up with. If you have any more suggestions please let me know I will post what I find out later.
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Old 12-17-2008, 03:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Great! That's want we wanna hear...logical progression!

If...the kickdown is held all the way "back" (full line pressure mode), then it would not upshift to 3rd until around 60>70mph depending upon tire size and gearing. Maybe the kickdown linkage needs attention since ya did remove at least part of that when ya diddles the carb.

See this recent post from chris, which also contains some other links to the "kickdown" subject:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...does-work.html
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Michael,

I'd just like to add the fact that the swepco 714-20 atf is a great product to use in those trannies..... In fact you can use it as a replacement for all dexron, most mercon, and all chrysler specifications including the atf+4.

It provides smoother, yet more positive shifting to help reduce heat build up and has a higher additive package than anything else on the market. Transmissions typically run cooler, even without add - on transmission coolers.

I've supplied customers for practically any type of application, including from toyota to cat haul trucks, as well as drag car racing.

Jeff also stocks this item for his customers.

Dick
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ok I know it has been a while but with the hollidays I just have not been able to even look at the Scout. Ok this is what I have done.

I checked the kickdown and it looks like it is correctly adjusted. It is all the way forward when the throttle is closed, seems to have a full range of motion through out the travel of the throttle.

I also checked the shifter cable, it is new and appears to be in good shape. The cable feels like it engages all the shift points but in the transmission does not shift into the gears. If I am driving the Scout and shift through the gears it will go into first gear but not into the rest.

This is the full senario gear by gear:

park: works fine
reverse: works fine
nuetral: works fine
1st: when the truck is in drive it starts out in first and works fine.
2nd: the Scout does not shift up into 2nd from first while the truck in dive or when it is manualy shifted in to secound.
Drive gear: does not shift up to drive by manualy shifting or by increasing speed.

If this is a valve body problem such as the 1/2 valve and the 2/3 valve sticking do you have any pictures or a link so that I can either replace the valves or try to unstick them.

The other problem that was suggested was the govener in the back of the transmission being stuck if this is the case, is there a place I can go for some pictures and a run down with how to do this.

I am trying not to take this to a tranny guy because everytime they look at the thing I have to sell a body part to pay for it. If you have any more suggestions on what to try or need more information let me know I May have to sell some digits.

Thanks
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Sorry I overlooked this post jon!

One more thing to try...review the "band adjustment" thread in this forum and adjust the front (kickdown) band, paying close attention as to whether it's very "loose" as I described. This is a shot in the dark, but since the tranny is a fairly recent overhaul, it's possible the band was not adjusted properly when being rebuilt. I've repaired two trannys in the last year or so that had that issue. It's definitely worth a try.

Do not drop the pan and mess with the low/reverse band, that is not your problem!

Then if the upshift problem still exists, here's an idea...

I'll start a new thread on how to r&r a valve body inna Scout II 727 application. I'll do this with a tranny on the bench...pics of each step as I normally do. With normal hand tools you can certainly do this yourself and there is little/no chance of scruuin' up anything.

I'd rather you did not try and tear into a valve body on your own. Yeah ...with several books ya might be able to struggle through this, but it's not something I'd attempt if you did not have close supervision. I taught this kinda stuff inna community college for 14 years so I do know that doing this type training inna classroom setting is very problematic, much easier to do one-on-one! And I do this kinda stuff here for folks one-on-one fairly often.

But here's an offer ya can't beat...I'll send you a fresh valve body (no tf-2 kit unless ya wanna pay for that extra). It will be ready to install, and I'll shoot some pics and do a simple narrative regarding tearing into it so folks can see how tedious this is. But the one you will receive will be plug and play in your transmission and will function as new.

If that solves the problem, then you will call Jeff at ihon and he's gonna nick yore credit card for $85 plus the cost of shipping (about $15). If you want a tf-2 kit installed, then the total cost for the parts and overhaul/install/mods will be $178 plus the same shipping charge. Then you will return your current core valve body to me (instructions will be included) and we'll all be happy! These prices are way under what a local tranny shop would charge for the same deal.

If this does not fix it, or makes it "better" but not perfect, then I'll talk ya through removing and servicing the governor. In order to do that, you will have to remove the transfer case and set aside. Then you will need to secure the engine in the frame and remove the tranny cross member and then the output gear and tailhousing. This will allow access to the governor. The tranny does not have to come out of the frame for doing this operation.

Servicing the governor must be done in a very clean manner. It is a simple system, but ya really have to play close attention to the way the parts come out...and go back in!

You can contact your tranny guy regarding the cost of r&r and rebuild of your valve body, I'm betting his quote will be in the neighborhood of $315, so by going the diy route you are able to save at least one hand's worth of digits.

Or...ya could have the tranny guy do a complete "oil pressure" diagnostic on it to come to the conclusion the valve body has issues, cost for that would be around $165 I'm guessing just for the diagnostic, no repair!
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thanks for the info, I will check the band for correct adjustment then if that does not work I will take you up on your valve body deal. Thanks for your help
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:09 AM   #37
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Default IHC Torqueflite 727 interchange

I've read through the above posts, but would like to clarrify one thing...

Are there just two ihc tf727 versions? Scout with married transfer case, and pickup/Travelall?

In April I will picking up my Dad's old (and originally my grandpa's) '72 1210 4wd pickup with a 100k mile 392 (4-barrel Holley) and automatic. It is out of state, so I can't go id or check anything right now.

The truck was retired last year when it lost reverse. Apparently there is broken stuff in the pan. It was rebuilt and resealed about 20 years ago, and shifted great until it broke. No reverse on a farm truck = parked & tarped.

I'm assuming and hoping it's a tf727, but it is my 1972, when they shifted from bw to the tf.

Are all the 2wd/4wd pickup tf727's the same? All years? I'm not sure if I want to pick one up used and install it or rebuild the existing one. I'm very tight on cash (always have been, not just now) and my first goal is to get the truck driveable at least around town.

I'm a newbie, and hope I haven't asked a question that's already been answered here, but did look around for an hour or so last night...

Rob jacox
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soon to have a '72 1210
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:23 AM   #38
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Welcome to the forum rob!!! What's with all this activity IH-wise outta bend recently?? I'm yore neighbor 65 miles west down hiway 126.

Regarding "which" tranny you might encounter, the "phase-in" of the tf 727 for IH apps was not a "clean vin cut" kinda deal...it was...a "phase-in". And many of the rigs which were oem with the borg warner slushbox have been converted over to 727 by now...in fact...I'm building a 727 right now for doing that, it's going into a '64 travelette.

Easiest way to tell for a novice to this stuff is simply use a magnet! If it sticks to the bellhousing/case of the tranny, it's a cast iron borg warner. If it don't stick , then it's an aluminum tf 727.

Same for the Scout 810/Scout II platform, the tf 727 was phased in, and yes...that one is only a married d20 transfer case app if 4x4.

A 4x4 pickall if oem with a 727 will have a divorced np 205 transfer case. If original with a borg warner slushbox, then it could be a np201 or who knows as nearly any tc could be "spec'd by a dealer for a fleet buy. The only thing that really matters is what the vehicle under discussion has...not what is "original"!

If the tranny is a 727, then yes, the 2x4 and 4x4 versions are the same, both use the very short tailhousing.

I would never go to all the trouble of installing an "unknown" used slushbox! Ya oughta see some of the "used" ones I have here in the shop right now!!!

The "no reverse" issue is quite common, that is caused by lack of maintenance over the years and is not a fundamental "weakness" in a 727!!!! Anyone who claims that is full of shit!

The rear band is broken and the strut May have fallen into the pan. Just typical "overhaul" kinda stuff that is done every day.

If the tranny is a bw...then it could be a few other things...and while we do have a parts source for those trannys....rebuilding one is gonna run much more than swapping in a 727.

I do slushboxtranny work for ihon under "contract/sublet". If ya wanna take a trip down the hill I'll be glad to show ya some pickall versions of a 727 undergoing build now, and I do have a few cores that will be suitable for a swap if you go that route.

Making up mounts and all is no problem, but the 727 inna pickall is a side mount tranny and the oem mounts for those two points are very pricey. And by far the best solution for the "kickdown" and throttle control is the lokar cable set up. The bw tranny uses both a vacuum system and and electric switch for that function, totally different from a tf 727 which used no vacuum.

The rig discussed in these threads is a m/y '71 (build date of feb./71) and izza bw slushbox. It also had no reverse (prolly why it was parked many years ago):

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com...-phase-II.html

Come on down for a visit!!!

P.s. I'd be more than happy to work with ya on bringing the family heirloom to life! I have many friends around the country who are doing the same right now, many of 'em were raised in the rig, raised their own kids in the rig, and now their grandkids are doing restos on the same rig!!!
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:04 PM   #39
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

From what I know, I'm almost certain it's a 727. It is all-original, for sure. It's been in the family since day-one, I drove it regularly in high-school (yup, in big-city san jose, CA, in the 1980's, I was cool enough to drive a hot-rod, 4-barrel, dual exhaust, loud and ugly farm truck to school!).

Glad to see there are I-h guys local (I'll count leaburg as local). I've got a former customer of mine that has quite a few e/70's pickups in various stages of dis-repair, I'm trying to track him down. I need a few body/interior parts, but that's for another time.

We're heading up to washington (where my folks now live) in late March or early April - after there is "no chance" of snow - to tow it home on a flatbed. When that time comes, I'll probably be a real nuisance on this forum for awhile...

My Dad does have an original (in excellent condition) 1972 I-h pickup/Travelall service manual I'll be getting with it.
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Mike,
I agree with 99% of what you say but this statement I think is a little off.

Quote:
anda dodge (in actuality a chrysler) converter will not mount inna IH app without extensive mods. Boneyard bullshit.
I have bolted a chrysler tc to a Scout flywheel/flexplate that still had it's own ring gear on it.
Maybe it was a one in a thousand chance, but it did bolt up.
It's been years ago so I can't tell you the specific application it went to. But since no IH tc had a ring gear that I know of.. It certainly wasn't intended for the IH 727. But it fit.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:25 AM   #41
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill usn-1 View Post
Mike,
I agree with 99% of what you say but this statement I think is a little off.



I have bolted a chrysler tc to a Scout flywheel/flexplate that still had it's own ring gear on it.
Maybe it was a one in a thousand chance, but it did bolt up.
It's been years ago so I can't tell you the specific application it went to. But since no IH tc had a ring gear that I know of.. It certainly wasn't intended for the IH 727. But it fit.
Yes...it will "bolt-up". Given that the entire balance situation is somewhat different between "all" the engines (various oem designs) that might have had a tf 727 torque converter, there has certainly been much mixing and mingling of torque converters amongst applications in the last 35+ years, no doubt others have done the same. With a resulting considerable "out-of-balance" situation.

Thus my statement with the two words..."extensive mods".

Torque converter rebuilders "convert" the various cores form one application to another every day, they have to in order to be able to continue to supply replacements to the industry. The basic torqueflite as we know it has been around for over 45 years! Remove a ring gear...add a ring gear...correct the balance by removing or adding balance weight pads, etc.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:39 AM   #42
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

I'm sure they're out there but I have not personally seen a converter that wasn't zero balanced. They May have a balance plate or dill marks to get them to zero.

Flexplates and dampners yes. Many engines are externally balanced and I also understand the importance of having a clutch or converters balance checked when building a motor but I don't include them in my motor balance.
They are replaceable so I don't want my motor's balance to be thrown off if I change a clutch or a converter.

Do you have any data that shows a 727 converter being balanced at something other then zero?
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:48 AM   #43
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Find a copy of the carl munroe torqueflite bible and you will find the entire process explained...pp. 150>155 inclusive.
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thanks, I already own it.
Will check it out.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ok Mike.
It was a good refresher reading up on the 727 converters again.
I don't know why I forget my own library sometimes.
I'm sure you came to the same conclusion, that according to the chart the 6cyl and 318 converters all use 0 balance weights.
Now if the IH converters on my shelf are representative of all of them, then the IH converter also uses no balance weight.

I would conclude that if it physically fits with the ring gear still on it that the 6cyl and 318 converters would work for an IH 727.
Obviously this would not be ideal but if you are in a pinch to get your daily driver up and running by Monday morning and all they have is 318 converters on the shelf.......

The other side of this is a choice of stall speeds!
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