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Old 07-17-2008, 04:26 PM   #16
Michael Mayben
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Now we're gonna jaw about "the bearing"!!

This issue pertains only to a Scout II 727 tranny witha married transfer case.

The pic shows three different variations of a 727 tailhousing (and this doesn't even begin to cover all the variations that were produced!!).

On the left is a dodge 440 motorhome tranny, this would be near identical to the same item found in some ihc motorhome chassis. Next to the hemi version of the 727, the motorhome unit was the most rugged variation chrysler produced and was the same unit found in medium duty dodge trucks.

The center unit is what is found on ihc 2x4 Scout II, and all fullsize 2x4 and 4x4 vehicles (except motorhome chassis).

The tailhousing on the right is for a Scout II married transfer case...that is the unit previously discussed regarding the vent relocation project.

The dodge and the ihc output shaft ball bearings are dimensionally identical. However, the dodge unit is a "9 ball" bearing (higher load capacity), while the ihc bearing (that tranny is from a t'all)is a "8 ball" bearing.

Both of those bearings are "specials" meaning they are for transmission applications only and are not a common off-the-shelf bearing from the local parts source. We do have a supply of those bearings available (semi-difficult to locate) but they are pricee...currently around $78 new. If ya can't stop a leak at that seal point by installing a fresh one, then the bearing is ng!

Both of those trannys use a "bolt-on" yoke (not a slip yoke like chrysler passenger car apps) and use a common single seal which is provided in any tf 727 "soft parts" overhaul kit.
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Old 07-17-2008, 04:33 PM   #17
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

The bearing for the Scout II variation is also a "special". It was used in only this particular application and not used by any other manufacturer in that dimension!!!! And the Scout II output shaft is also specially dimensioned to mate with that bearing.

The load capacity of that bearing is a critical item since it supports the output gear and all tranny torque to the transfer case input gear. It's not something that can be juryrigged. And the bearing itself is way overkill for the application. What usually kills it is the entry of mud, water, snow, dirt, condensation, etc. From the screwball vent provided by IH in the tailhousing adapter design, they didn't even put some kinda "top hat" on it to deflect crap.

If the bearing begins to fail, a noticeable whine will be heard (kinda like transfer case bearing whine), along with increased driveline slop. Also, tranny oil will mix into the transfer case, and transfer case lube will enter the tranny. Both will leak from the vent hole majorly! This is because the dual seals cannot cope with the increase in the output shaft/gear combo runout.

There are a few tranny parts vendors out there that claim to have a bearing for this application, but they are junk! They are entirely the wrong bearing application that have been juryrigged with a crappy bushing. They are not transmission bearings engineered for this position.

Ihon is now the exclusive distributor/retailer for custom-manufactured replacement bearings produced by bearing tech in carleton, or. These are not an inexpensive item to either purchase in bulk or to convert to the proper application. But these are the only bearings which will meet/exceed the oem specification for that application.

Jeff will soon announce the availability of these bearings along with a kit consisting of the proper gasket and dual seals needed for replacement. Maybe even some "ready to install" reconditioned tailhousings for Scout II which will include the relocated vent system.

Attached is a pic of a really special version of this bearing, one of only two ever produced. This is a ceramic bearing version, which has had the races super-micro polished and then undergone a "microblue" treatment. I've installed one of those bearings and it's totally amazing how different it "feels" when spun as compared to the new standard bearing. Ya don"t wanna know how much that one sells for!

Completely disregard the fafnir etchings that appear on the races of that bearing, they mean nothing. That unit was manufactured from two completely different special bearings and then machined to correct dimensions. Another factor that greatly adds to the cost of producing a one-off bearing such as this one.

Many nascar trannys and other race application units use a whole box full of these kinda items, that's the difference in finishing a race and/or going a whole season onna single tranny!
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Hey Mike, what torque converter options are available for these aps? There's a thread going on the bb right now (I know, take deep breaths) where a member claims to have used a tc from a dodge ap with some modification. His assertion is that the stall speed of the correct for IH tc is a bit too high for these slow turning torque monsters out on the trail. Is this another case of bbs or is there anything to it? You might have to login as your alter ego, nancy pelosi and check it out kinda clandestine like!
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

I'm callin' bbs! And I sure don't waste any digitrons checkin' the bb anymore even in stealth mode from yore ip addy!

Anda dodge (in actuality a chrysler) converter will not mount inna IH app without extensive mods. Boneyard bullshit.

The oem stall on IH 727 converter apps is a "nominal" 1800rpm for both sii and fullsize. That can vary by 100rpm or more, this is not an "exact" science.

You can test yours simply by "power-braking" once the engine and tranny is fully warmed up, don't do that for longer than 10 seconds as the fluid temp skyrockets! And only do it once, just long enuff to freeze tha tach display in yore eyeballs.

This type stuff is engineered at the point of design/manufacture for the "optimum" overall drive ratio, figuring oem tire size, final drive ratio, tranny ratios in each gear, etc. And "optimum" includes projected vehicle gvwr/gcvwr (factoring a trailering capacity), and the engine specs/torque peak/rpm for the same vehicle.

All that hocuspocus figgrs into the various weight ratings, etc. Just as does/did, axle capacity, spring capacity, brake capacity, frame capacity, engine cooling system capacity, etc.

Of course ya can have any converter "built" to most any spec ya wanna pay for! Major deviations from all the above and including a "built" motor could certainly enhance overall vehicle/tranny performance for "some" specific applications...serious rock crawl, serious tow rig, drag race only, sand runnin' with paddle tires, etc. But then it won't be optimum for all ranges of uses/activities!

One of the largest torque converter builders in the western u.s. Is located in eugene and can do anything ya wanna pay for. Nearly all tcs sold in local/regional tranny shops come outta that facility. They are manufacturers/wholesalers only, don't sell to the walk-in trade, only commercial shops and re-distribution operations. Give 'em a spec, they'll build it (within reason of course).

There are many converters for chrysler apps available over the counter in any stall ya want. But there is a market for those. There is only one stall normally found over the counter for IH schnizz (and that's oem), since there is no market for that stuff! Simple fact of sales economics!

This topic goes round and round occasionally, just like the "motorhome" low gear set that is stuff of legend!
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Old 08-23-2008, 10:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Gud tuh kno! I had my suspishuns. I wuz just curious. Lends a degree of credence to the answer I chose to provide in that bb thread.
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:56 PM   #21
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Thumbs up slow drive and reverse engage

Ok guys, the 727 in my s2 has been acting funky for awhile now. When cold it was hesitant to go into reverse or low. Warming it up seemed to help but it still acted funky.
Well to make a long story short, adjusting the low reverse band did the trick. After 35 years I guess it was a little out of adjustment.
The procedure is outlined in the cts. The only thing I would recommend is trying to find the fiber type pan gasket at a local transmission rebuilder supply house. The rubber one in the kits from autozone and so on really suck.
After adjusting this one it seems to shift smoother ,quicker and a little firmer. I also did the kickdown band , same procedure just on the outside of the case.
The only question I have is about the procedure for adjusting the kickdown rod , the setup on my Scout is not the same as in the cts. Any help here would be appreciated.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: slow drive and reverse engage

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Originally Posted by towpainter3 View Post
The only question I have is about the procedure for adjusting the kickdown rod , the setup on my Scout is not the same as in the cts. Any help here would be appreciated.
Some pic's or a description of your set up would help.

The generic method for adjusting any 727 throttle valve linkage is as follows.

#1 make sure the engine is up to temp and the idle speed is where you want it (your supposed to re-adjust any time you change the idle speed screw for more than 25rpm change)

#2 remove the "e" clip that holds the rod to the pivot and disconnect the linkage.

#3 adjust as necessary so that it will slide back on with the rod held against the up/forward stop and the carb linkage held forward against it's stop.

Road test, if you want later shifts make the rod longer, if you want sooner shifts make the rod shorter
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:58 PM   #23
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ain't it amazing whatta little "maintenance" will do for stuff brad! Good thang ya handled the bands now instead of waiting for that big ol' bang when ya go to reverse onna cold mornin' and find out it went away in tha middle of the nite! Translate that as "broken low/reverse band" and/or it's companion aka "servo flop"!! Same thuing can/will happen if "fast idle" is engaged onna cold motor with a cold tranny. Let it warm up enuff to come off the highest fast idle point before engaging "d" or "r".

Simple throttle pressure/kickdown adjustment for any non-electronic version offa torqueflite:

1) adjust throttle cable (or rod on some rigs) so that the throttle goes wot completely!! Very important to do that first!

2) adjust the clevis (or cable if the throttle pressure control has been converted to a lokar-type kickdown control) so that at wot (pedal held firmly to the floor), the throttle pressure rod has some slight additional travel down at the tranny lever before going hard against it's internal stop. Ya do not want the throttle pressure lever to ever be held hard against the stop inside, that leads to much wear in the "bushing" area the shaft runs in (part of the valve body), and creates a leak at the "small" seal interface. Give it about 1/16 of an inch of slack/additional travel.

3) if ya do step 2, you should see, when the throttle is closed, a "gap" in the slotted link of maybe 1/4" as the throttle is slowly opened before it picks up the throttle pressure control as the throttle is opened. Then the throttle "butterfly" position is in correct "synch" with the throttle pressure control on the tranny.

All this is predicated on the throttle linkage being in decent shape, the tranny in decent shape, and fairly "stock" size meats. The actual shift points will very somewhat depending upon throttle position vs. Ground speed and engine "load" (based upon the mechanical throttle linkage). Torqueflites never used any form of modulator, vacuum cannister, electric solenoid, etc. As part of the upshift/downshift scenario as did borg warner, hydramatic division, etc. They are very simple slushboxes in actual operation.

The actual shift points are "controlled" by throttle pressure (thus correct adjustment is imperative!) and the action of the governor mounted on the output shaft inside the tailhousing. That is with the tranny in "drive" and not being manually shifted, the so-called "automatic function.

Larger meats than oem will really change shift points, as will axle gear changes, so it's really not possible to use the standard shift "tables" as found in the various service references if yore meats and gears are big!

The "kickdown" linkage onna fullsize witha tf 727 is somewhat different than the same item onna Scout II with 727. But the adjustment procedure is exactly the same. When production of the "set back" motor versions of pickup and t'all phased in in mid-1973, the entire "kickdown" linkage was changed up to accommodate the amc 401/tf727 setup found in some '73, '74, and '75 models. That kickdown linkage is total shit in design and operation!!! The only cure for that...shitcan all of it and use the lokar cable kickdown setup...it's outstanding in design and execution!

You think IH stuff is crapball engineered...try mixin' in rambler crap with their own version offa tf 727!
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Old 10-09-2008, 06:11 PM   #24
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Thumbs up Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Ok,once again {thanks guys!!!}
will adjust linkage tomorrow as soon as I get home from the money farm. Tranny seems a lot better after driving for a few miles too. And on the subject of amc. Been there done that,and a big ol f that. Had a gremlin with a 390 and a 727. It would haul ass but damn trying to decide which of the big 3 made the damn parts. They called em amc cause they could'nt spell chryfordolet!!!!
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Quote:
They called em amc cause they could'nt spell chryfordolet!!!!
In the day, we said amc stood for "a mechanical crisis" or "a moron's car". I never owned one, though a relative or 2 had a rambler here and there. Gotta admit, they were tough if you found a good one.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:54 AM   #26
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

So I got some prices on rebuilding the tranny and t-case 727/20 is this something I can do or am I better off paying someone. What I want done is full seal replacement and r/r anything that needs it. Seems ok goes into gear nice and evrything it's just leaking atf all over looks like from the front
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Old 10-24-2008, 08:24 AM   #27
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Marco...if ya simply wanna "reseal" the entire package, then yes, it's a fairly simple operation and straightforward. But it's not a "Saturday morning" kinda deal if ya wanna do it right. Depending upon how you approach work like this, I'd allow at least 20 hours of "straight time" to do this right in the learning mode! So that would be time spread over several sessions for most hobbyists. A "pro" would prolly bang it out (bench work only, no r&r), inna 'bout 5 hours flat rate at $90>$110 an hour plus parts in your local market?

And this would be a great how-to thread for the forum. I have most of the shots needed for this already, and a d20 in progress on the bench now. I also have a 4x2 tf 727 build for a tow rig in progress now which is identical except for the tail section so it's easy at this point to document info with pics.

All parts for this are readily available, but the two identical seals used behind the transfer case input gear on the 727 will have to be sourced separately, no big deal.

Once the entire package is out on the ground, my advice would be to first seal the front tranny input area and the two connections for the cooler fittings, and then powerwash the entire unit, getting it as clean as ya possibly can. Only then proceed with removing the transfer case from the tranny. The key to a successful "re-seal" is cleanliness and attention to detail.

And regarding the tranny itself, that would be the time to adjust the two bands since the pan will be off for a filter and pan gasket replacement, along with the two seals involved with the shift tower.

The front tranny leak is "normally" the seal which engages the nose of the torque converter. Behind that seal is a bushing, standard practice is to always replace the bushing along with the seal. For a novice, that is easier to do if the front pump is removed from the tranny but that is not imperative. There is a large "square cut" "o" ring that seals the peripheral of the front pump, but I've never seen a leak at that point unless the case itself was damaged during a previous overhaul attempt. And each of the bolts which retain the front pump have a special sealing washer which is an important item.

Removing the front pump will involve the use of a "technique" that is important to follow, and also requires at least one (preferably two) small slide hammer(s)or a shop-fabbed equivalent. For pump replacement, you will need to fab two line-up studs using 5/16"x18tpi bolts about three inches long.

The "seal" or "soft parts" kits available for the tf727 will have everything needed for the tranny but will also have several parts that are not used on the Scout II/IH variation. And...the output shaft seal in those kits will not work onna sii 4x4. That is why we have to source those two seals separately.

Ihon also has reseal kits for the d20 transfer case.

Another thing to pay attention to at that time would be the tranny mount itself, along with the shift cable and it's retaining clip.

The absolute best reference for the 727 tranny is..."torqueflite a-727 transmission handbook" by carl munroe. Isbn#1-55788-413-7. It even has several mentions of the ihc torqueflite variation! It has nothing included regarding a "married" 4x4 transfer case application, so the only real difference is the use of the tc adapter which uses the "special" output bearing and the two seals previously mentioned.

To replace those seals, the adapter does not have to be removed from the tranny, but is does need to come off if ya wanna replace the gasket between the tranny case itself and the adapter. There are no other soft parts in that tailhousing/adapter that need attention.
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Thanks for the info michael, that's about how much time I figured for an amateur like me. The good thing is I have two of these tranny's but the other has a d300 on it. I will keep you posted as I go along. This weekend is pretty shot I will probably pull it tomorrow and that's it. Got to go hunting you know.
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael mayben View Post
let's use this thread for anything related to the chrysler-supply torqueflite 727 tranny as used in both "d" model fullsize stuff and Scout II.
I have the IH version of the torqueflite 727 in and a Scout II with a 304, I just had the trany rebuilt about 2000 miles ago, but the truck has been sitting for 2 years now. I just now got it back on the road, the first couple of days that I drove it all seemed fine but now it will not up shift into third gear. It shifts into all other gears including reverse, 1st and 2nd find but it will not jump up into the drive gear. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be wrong., and how to fix it?
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:16 PM   #30
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Default Re: Torqueflite 727 Guapo

Welcome to the ihon forums jonsalter!

I believe what you are experiencing is a fairly common issue concerning vehicles that are not operated for lengthy periods of time. And that does not just include transmissions! Engines are greatly affected as well! Most especially the IH I-4 and sv motors can gobble the cam oem bearings under that type of "non-use".

The 727, like all other automatic transmissions are extremely complicated in their hydraulic circuitry. Very tight tolerances inside the valve body and governor assembly. Depending upon your shop situation, tool situation, and wrenching ability, there are some things you can possibly do yourself to make the tranny play nice again.

First off...do not add any kind of liquid snake oil to this transmission!!!! Please!!! That will fix nothing!

What is the year model of the vehicle in question and is the 727 original to the vin on that rig?? There are some major differences regarding the valve body between the "early" and "late" 727 used in the Scout II platform.

edit: I just found your other thread and see the rig under discussion is m/y '74. Are you sure that the engine/tranny/driveline is original to that vehicle??

Was the tranny shifting properly after the overhaul/re-install (I mean perfect operation??). Who did the install, a pro shop or you? Was it shifting properly when it was last operated and then parked?

Are you absolutely certain that the shifter/shift cable is correctly adjusted?? This is a very tedious operation onna Scout II, especially with an old, rotten cable, and will affect what you are experiencing. Before moving ahead in diagnostics, you must verify correct shifter/cable adjustment and operation through the entire range of motion of the shift lever, that May involve two people to do this, one to operate the lever, another underneath to observe operation.

Have you attempted to adjust/change the throttle pressure control from the carb linkage (the so-called "kickdown")?? If so, did that do anything regarding overall shifting either up or down?

Other than shift cable adjustment/verification, there are most likely two issues affecting what you describe.

A) the 2/3 shift valve is sticking/hanging in the valve body.

B) the governor internal components are sticking/stuck.

Both of these conditions are caused by the "sitting syndrome" in most cases. That is due to internal corrosion (possibly not even visible to the naked eye) of these parts made to extremely precise tolerance and fit. This type corrosion is caused by drainback of the hydraulic fluid and lack of parts movement on a normal basis and is the byproduct of moisture condensation inside the transmission (same thing happens inside an in-op engine).

While it's possible that continued attempts at driving the rig "might" suddenly cause the "stuck" parts to free up and normal operation resume, in the mean time severe internal tranny damage can result also!

So give us some more information and we'll see where to go from here. Both of the conditions that I suspect May be root cause for your problem can be corrected with the tranny installed in the vehicle. But to service the governor mechanism, the transfer case and transfer case adapter (tail housing) must be removed. And the governor assembly itself must be treated as if it's inna "clean room" environment!
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