no spark

I

IbRamblin

Member
A little less than a month ago I installed ngk iridium spark plugs, msd wires, msd coil, and msd box. Everything was going great until yesterday when the Scout just died.

Check out the video

youtube - ignition
 
Is it the original distrubitor for a Scout. If it is check ure two wire sensor on the dis. Use a voltage meter to do this it should be puting out .5volts or better wille the engine is cranking if not its bad and needs replaced that will cause ure no spark problem.and it doesnt matter wich wire u put the neg.or pos. Leads to test.
 
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Hey ibramblin, I'll try to help you here.
It looks like you have a Holley distributor with a pertronix ignitor kit, and then you added the msd unit. Correct?
I see there is a ballast resistor mounted adjacent to the distributor. Check that for continuity and see if it burned out, replace it if it did burn out, and I suggest that you carry a spare in the glove box.

If you don't have a vom meter to check it with, you can remove it to inspect it visually as when they burn out, you can see the broken/burned wire.

On a side note, I see your cap & rotor appear to be the "cheaper" quality parts. I suggest using the highest quality cap & rotor with copper terminals.
 
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Those pertronix modules have been known to fail suddenly. Before we jump to that conclusion though, you need to verify a few things. First, do you have battery voltage present at the + coil terminal with the key on? It is imperative that you do not leave the key in the "on" position without the engine running for any great length of time, but it is acceptable for brief testing intervals. If voltage is present there, shut off the key, remove the high tension wire that runs from the coil to the dizz and ground the electrode against metal. It would be best if this could be accomplished without anyone having to physically hold this wire by hand. Have a helper crank the engine while you observe spark. You should observe a strong spark even in daylight. If that checks out good, I would next suspect your module as the culprit.
 
Thanks everyone but I think I fixed it. I just took the msd box out and it works fine. I do have the prestolite points distributor with a pertronix ignitor kit. That was on the truck when I got it about two months ago. I recently added the msd box; guess it was a bad one. So I just hooked up the way it was before and it fired right up. Nothing was wrong before I did the upgrade (it did make start up way faster).
I learned some diagnosing techniques though. Thanks again
 
Ok everyone, slow down!

Number one, that distributor is not a prestolite unit, wrong information there! It is a Holley "1510". The inclusion of an msd box (I certainly hope it's a "six" series and not the digital six!!) changes everything!

Triggering an msd box from the pertronix is a whole different animal as opposed to simply installing a p-tron conversion and driving on! And that doesn't matter which distributor is being used as long as it's a pertronix conversion. Many other breaker paoint conversion systems are not compatible with any add-on cd box from msd, mallory, accel, crane, etc.

Msd provides explicit troubleshooting instructions for verification of a "no start" condition. Follow those instructions exactly, if you do not have the installation/troubleshooting instructions, then download a copy form the msd website.

Also, we need to know which msd "blaster II" coil we are dealing with here, there are more than one, some of which are not compatible with the system described and can very well lead to electronic issues such as this. Some of those are a match to the system, many are not.

Also, when using a p-tron with an msd box, the ballast resistor or oem resistor wire must be eliminated from the ignition primary circuitry.

Please provide complete information as to exactly which pertronix (pertronix I or pertronix II) unit you are using , which coil, and which msd cd box.

Your pertronix conversion is not installed correctly. Remove the rotor, remove that plastic "spacer" that sits on top of the magnet ring, then remove the magnet ring. Place the plastic spacer down over the breaker point cam first, then install the magnet wheel, then the rotor. That places magnet wheel squarely in the "hot spot" of the p-tron hall effect pickup. This is a change pertronix made in several part number units a few years back, but did not update the instructions when they did so. This has been discussed in other threads in this forum previously.

Then verify that the "air gap" between the magnet ring "magnet" segment and the pickup is 0.030", that factor determines "dwell" and it's imperative it be correct in order to properly trigger the msd box.

There is nothing wrong with that distributor cap, it's clearly the proper cap for a Holley distributor and I see copper contacts!

Also, it appears that the electric choke cap is wired to the coil, that is wrong and will lead to failure of both the coil and the msd box (that is not really clear in your video though)!! The choke cap must be connected to an "ignition switched" b+ feed, and ditch the scotchlok, those should never be used in any form of automotive electrical service, most especially when dealing with very sensitive electronics such as the msd box and the pertronix unit.

Proper distributor identification is in this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html

For more information regarding performance ignition upgrades, this thread serves as that repository and it's open-ended to allow folks to add their own information:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/644-ignition-system-performance-upgrades.html
 
bigcountryihcrazy said:
is it the original distrubitor for a Scout. If it is check ure two wire sensor on the dis. Use a voltage meter to do this it should be puting out .5volts or better wille the engine is cranking if not its bad and needs replaced that will cause ure no spark problem.and it doesnt matter wich wire u put the neg.or pos. Leads to test.
Click to expand...

Please refrain from posting diagnostic information if you are not absolutely certain the information you post is correct!

There were several distributors used in the Scout/Scout II platform, both breaker point-type and electronic trigger. The information you provided only serves to confuse the issue and does not specify which distributor or system this process might involve.

This forum does not deal in non-factual information, this is a site to provide technical assistance for our current and future customers, not a place to just toss out whatever!
 
I've reviewed your video again, now I understand that you have the msd blaster II coil.

That coil is not compatible in stand-alone mode with the pertronix module. Even if the ballast resistor is used, the ballast is serving as a bandaid and will fail the p-tron at some point!

The pertronix requires a coil with a primary resistance in the range of 1.4>2.0 ohms when used in a conventional system. The use of the ballast resistor supplied with that coil will not correct for that fact! Does the stick-on label on the pertronix appear to be "shrunk" or distorted? If so, the p-tron is damaged, that label is a tell-tale that the wrong coil was used with the p-tron or some other incorrect hookup was used and is not an issue that pertronix considers to be "warranty", especially when used in a system of mixed (and mis-matched) componentry.

When the p-tron is used to trigger the msd six box, then everything changes. The blaster II coil is correct for the box and I would consider an "upgrade", the box needs an upgrade coil to provide all it's potential for performance enhancement. The pertronix then becomes only an electronic "switch" to turn the box off and on during operation, and the mis-match you have is taken out of the equation.

I deal with this same scenario over and over, folks buy this add-on stuff based upon marketing with no regard to matching components in a proper manner. But if you don't have much experience in dealing in this arena, one is not knowledgeable enough to read through the bullshit! And the way summit (and others) present this stuff, they simply make the situation worse by not providing complete information.

Yes, components from different suppliers can be mixed, but only if the components are the proper electrical match!

The system I referenced in the "performance upgrade" thread that I run is a mix of parts that are basically identical to what you have...minus the ballast resistor and/or resistor wire feed. That msd "ss" coil has essentially the same primary resistance specification as your conventional oil-filled blaster II coil (the ss coil in actual measurement is 0.55 ohms, your coil is 0.7 ohms).

The msd "six" series cd boxes are electrically identical to the same "six" boxes from mallory. Wiring is identical when incorporated with all forms of triggers. However, the "digital six" versions are not compatible with the hall effect trigger from pertronix.

If...your pertronix is not fried, then by properly wiring this system you have, it May come back to life with no permanent damage, the six box can go into "shut-down" mode when it sees conditions it doesn't like if it's not cooked before that occurs! Msd (and mallory) don't describe this.

And if ya cruise the msd techassist forum, you will see this same scenario played out over and over! If msd, and pertronix, and mallory would simply do a better job of educating their purchasers/installer customers as to mis-match, we would not be having this same thing come up over and over!

Both mallory and msd installation instructions are excellent (and dam near identical!), but they involve the use of their own respective matched components in each installation scenario.

Msd does not supply any form of a hall effect trigger unit in their ignition products...but mallory uses three distinctly different forms of triggers in their distributor products (none of which are hall effect like the pertronix!) every wiring scenario is different to a degree as determined by which type of trigger is being incorporated.
 
Re: Great forum here

induradia said:
I love forum vey professional and clean. I live in the us well philly to be exact just wanted to drop and see how everyone is and what not.
Click to expand...

If you like it so much, why blatantly disrespect it by hijacking an obvious tech thread? How's your 1993 Scout iv running by the way?
 
Re: Great forum here

Please dont give up on me guys. Ive put together another video in hopes of answering the questions posed on this thread. If I didnt answer correctly its probably because I dont know what im talking about, but there is good news; I learn very fast. My goal is to make the Scout reliable for long enough to put together an iginition system that will suit my needs.
One thing that I didnt mention in the second video is about the properly installed pertronix. Is it possible for somebody to post pictures of how its supposed to look? I think I understand the explanation given in the thread, but would like to have a visual.

Heres ther video
youtube - 1972 International Scout ignition part II
 
Don't worry. No one's going to give up on you here. All it takes is a willingness to check egos at the door, be respectful, and try to answer any diagnostic questions to the best of your ability. This one got off to a rough start because you've got such a hodge podge combo of oe and aftermarket ignition components, which caused some well-meaning (for the most part) folks (myself included) to incorrectly indentify and misdiagnose the problem. Now that the derailed train is back on the tracks, I'm confident this situation will be resolved in due time.
 
Re: Great forum here

ibramblin said:
please dont give up on me guys. Ive put together another video in hopes of answering the questions posed on this thread. If I didnt answer correctly its probably because I dont know what im talking about, but there is good news; I learn very fast. My goal is to make the Scout reliable for long enough to put together an iginition system that will suit my needs.
One thing that I didnt mention in the second video is about the properly installed pertronix. Is it possible for somebody to post pictures of how its supposed to look? I think I understand the explanation given in the thread, but would like to have a visual.

Heres ther video
youtube - 1972 International Scout ignition part II
Click to expand...

For the pertronix install...

1) remove the rotor by pulling straight up and set aside.

2) remove the small plastic "ring" that is on top of the magnet wheel and set aside, it is about 3/16" thick. This ring is the part that is new due to a design change in the pertronix application you have. Older version do not have that ring, and the magnet wheel is different internally.

3) remove the magnet ring (black plastic piece) by pulling straight up and off the breaker point cam. Set aside.

4) place the previously-removed plastic ring/spacer down over the breaker point cam, it will be a kinda "loose" fit and just sets on top of the cam as a "spacer".

5) push the magnet wheel down over the point cam, it can go on in eight different directions, it does not matter where it lands, just push it all the way down as it's a snug fit.

6) push the rotor back down on the top of the point cam "stub, aligning the keyway on the top with the key molded inside the rotor hole, push it all the way down, it should be real snug going down.

Now...the magnet wheel and the pertronix pickup should be aligned with the pickup pretty well "centered in the magnet ring width.

It's "possible" that the magnet ring you have is not separate from the plastic ring spacer. If that is the case, then leave everything alone, you have yet a third design that I've yet to see in my conversions.

The number on the mylar sticker on top of the black p-tron module is the heat sensitive label, the number itself is an id for the actual electronic unit and is not the part number for the entire pertronix package you have installed. The actual pertronix part number you have in that Holley 1510 distributor is "1481" and is a pertronix I. The "carb" number on the side indicates the unit is "carb compliant which only means anything when used in the state of kalifornikate, that is a carb "exemption number and means the pertronix I is "smog legal".

The pertronix unit you have is not adjustable as to air gap as I previously mentioned, ya simply mount it in a single position with the two screws, connect to the coil, and drive on.

I do not have a pic of this version p-tron install

there is nothing wrong with your entire ignition system per se, all the components are state-of -the art if properly installed and wired!!!

I will post complete instructions regarding what I would do if this were my problem tomorrow. I'm trying to complete another vehicle tonite and still have a few more hours of work to do.
 
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Ok, I watched your latest vid. I can speak to some of your questions, but I'll take a pass on others.

Starting with your "stand alone" question. What mm meant by that is the condition you have currently. In other words, everything you've got minus the msd box. In addition, your blaster II coil has an incorrect resistance value for use with the pertronix module either with or without the inclusion of the ballast resistor, but when the msd box is incorporated, that coil is just fine. Confusing huh?

To explain the ballast resistor function, we need to imagine what your '72 Scout was like before some po went mod crazy on the thing. Originally that vehicle had breaker points and a condenser in the Holley 1510 distributor. It had an ignition coil with an internal resistance value of approximately 1.4 ohm. Attached to the + terminal of the coil was a very odd looking, insulated wire that with all the split loom and electrical tape removed would have revealed far more length then one would think necessary to make the run, coiled up in a haphazard, ghastly manner. This was a resistor wire, and the length of @ 78 inches was necessary in order to achieve a value of 1.8 ohm. That value plus the coil value combined for a total primary resistance of 3.2 ohm. Now, someone obviously removed that resistor wire at some point, and replaced it with a normal wire interrupted by the porcelain ballast resistor you now have. This is a very common practice.

Ordinarily, the ignition coil for your model year Scout would have two wires going to the + terminal. One being either type of wire previously discussed, and the other being a starter bypass feed coming up from the "s" terminal of the starter-mounted solenoid. The purpose of this wire is to provide full battery voltage to the coil during starter cranking only. This is a critical circuit and should be traced out and verified on your end. Once the engine catches and the key is released to "on", the resistor feed wire then provides a slightly reduced, constant voltage to the coil until the key is switched off. I see that you do have two wires going to the coil + terminal, but it is unclear where either one of them is originating from. Obviously, someone has performed some creative routing at the very least. You should really trace each of these wires out separately from the coil to verify where each originates from.

As to the electric choke, the black circular cap contains a bi-metal spring inside. On the outside are two male blade terminals. One is for common chassis ground. The other is for connecting a 12v + charge. This should be supplied directly by an ignition key switch "on" source only, and definitely not leached from the coil + terminal. That blue item splicing two wires together is what mm was referring to as a scotch lock. As he stated, it and any others you might find on the vehicle should be eliminated at your earliest possible convenience. They just plain suck hairy balz. When properly adjusted, your electric choke will function as follows: during cold start, one pump of the throttle will close the butterfly valve or choke plate if you prefer. Once the engine catches and the key switch is released from "start" to "on", supplied voltage immediately begins heating the bi-metal spring inside the cap which in turn begins pulling the choke plate open in a pre-determined, gradual fashion, until it is all the way open and the engine is warm enough to run completely choke-free. As long as the key is on and and current is traveling through that + connection, the plate will remain fully open. That is why the circuit choice for this wire is so critical. Hopefully this will clarify a few items for you.
 
Re: Great forum here

michael mayben said:
It's "possible" that the magnet ring you have is not separate from the plastic ring spacer. If that is the case, then leave everything alone, you have yet a third design that I've yet to see in my conversions.
Click to expand...


Just throwing in my pennies - I currently have a pertronix ignitor installed that has a "permanent" spacer built into the top of the trigger ring, which eliminates (or prevents?) the dust cover between rotor and breaker plate assembly in my case. This is not the "ignitor II," and the box looks like something that was gathering dust on a shelf before I made the purchase.

That being said, my app is an oem Holley electronic trigger unit, not the breaker point version discussed here... I just want people to know that this variation of the setup does exist in at least the p/n ho-181 kit, and I'm fairly sure that I am getting 100% intended results with this switcheroo. Seems like the manufacturer just had several different ideas over time when it came to the specifics.
 
Re: Great forum here

kyleandhisih said:
just throwing in my pennies - I currently have a pertronix ignitor installed that has a "permanent" spacer built into the top of the trigger ring, which eliminates (or prevents?) the dust cover between rotor and breaker plate assembly in my case. This is not the "ignitor II," and the box looks like something that was gathering dust on a shelf before I made the purchase.

That being said, my app is an oem Holley electronic trigger unit, not the breaker point version discussed here... I just want people to know that this variation of the setup does exist in at least the p/n ho-181 kit, and I'm fairly sure that I am getting 100% intended results with this switcheroo. Seems like the manufacturer just had several different ideas over time when it came to the specifics.
Click to expand...

Kyle is correct, the pertronix he is using is only for use in a Holley gold box distributor. The magnet ring in that ho-181 slides down over the distributor reluctor instead of a breaker point cam. The ho-181 will not function in a Holley breaker point distributor, it's a distinctly different unit, though ti operates in exactly the same fashion as any pertronix hall effect conversion unit.

Last time I counted, there were over 250 different variations of just the pertronix I conversion, if they were interchangeable to any degree, pertronix would not offer two units that are the same with different application numbers.

To review the various distributors used in the IH sv engine just in the Holley lineup, check this thread:

http://www.forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/ignition-tech/642-ihc-vehicle-distributor-identification.html

All of the variations of the Holley aluminum-body distributor used by ihc (the 1500 series) share some components, but there are also distinct internal differences..."straight point", "curved point", gold box electronic, etc. The breaker point version is a model 1510 in Holley-speak. The gold box unit is a model 1530. Similar electronic units were also used in ihc apps that had silver-color amplifier boxes and black boxes also, but not on Scout II apps.
 
Scoutboy has done an excellent job in regurgitatin' what he's learnd over the years by watching alotta this schnizz go up in flames under the hood. That's why hiz new handle is now sparkee senior, since he crowned our buddy bryce sparkee last weekend.

And trev's poop he posted is exactly correct!

As for the ballast resistor that has been added....I don't care what msd sez, you cannot run that particular coil with a pertronix conversion only and expect it to live. In fact,...msd doesn't really say that, they just kinda "allude" to the situation, which is exactly why folks with no background in this stuff end up in trouble after spending big bucks on all the marketing smokeblow.

In "stand alone" mode (pertronix and coil only), let me make this simple...the pertronix unit determines what coil primary resistance factor is needed. The pertronix needs a coil with a primary resistance value of between 1.4 and 2.0ohms. It does not need either the "factory" resistance wire or a ballast resistor to function or provide long-term durability. But you can run it from either the oem resistor wire feed or a ballast resistor that has been hard-wired into the circuit because the oem resistor wire has failed and you can't buy a replacement. The pertronix unit really doesn't care one way or the other and will function just fine with no fall-off in performance!

A ballast resistor is only that, it reduces available current/voltage to the coil once the engine is running, that is done for several reasons that really don't matter here,...right now! The internal resistance of the coil primary circuit itself is a whole other issue, the coil must match the type of ignition system components that have been installed.

If...you desire to use the msd 6 box (and I assume you do otherwise you would not have invested in it!), that is an excellent choice to be used in combination with the pertronix 1481 conversion and the msd blaster II coil which has a nominal primary resistance of 0.7ohms (in the coil world, that value is very low resistance!). But remove the ballast resistor and do not use it on anything!

To use the msd box, the ballast resistor needs to be removed and will not be used at all! In fact, that wiring lash-up is most likely why this system has failed at this point.

Wire the msd box exactly per the instructions included, but do not use the "magnetic trigger" pigtail, the pertronix is not a magnetic trigger pickup and if you attempt to wire it that way, you will fry the entire system!

If the system will not function after correcting the wiring, then do the troubleshooting tests found in the msd 6 instructions. If it still does not function, then it's been damaged by the incorrect hookup we see in your first video.

Yes, it ran for awhile, but cannot continue to operate when not connected incorrectly.

The simplest way I know to explain this whole deal for someone who is not knowledgeable regarding ignition systems...by adding the msd 6 box, you have converted this system to a capacitive discharge design and it is no longer a so-called "inductive" ignition system like when the ride came off the assembly line. The pertronix simply replaces the "switching" function that the oem breaker points provided in that distributor. When used with the coil you have now, the msd box controls the coil, not the pertronix! Big difference! The msd 6 loves the low resistance of that coil, the pertronix unit in stand-alone mode hates it and will go up in flames at some point!
 
Yep, gilltee as charjid. I dun ben projektyl vomitin here, thar an everdamwher, mostly stuff I've had drummed intuh my fat skull while attending binder u. Did yawl git sum onya? Sorry 'bout that. It'll warsh off with a damp cloth.
 
Re: Great forum here

I took the cap off of the distributor and removed the rotor. There was a plastic piece left that wen I shook it sounded like it had sand in it. It was shaped like a top hat with the "brim" on top and grooves cut out of the bottom. I did not find any ring. Is my setup missing something?
I replaced the msd box, bypassing the resistor and so far so good.
I shouldnt have to if I did everything right but I will keep my fingers crossed anyway
 
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