Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Only one last suggestion. Bump up the oil pressure with a .063-.080 shim behind the bypass spring.
Rebuilt 392 lifter tick
- Thread starter Jesse B.
- Start date
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
I need to mention one more thing that I believe we spoke about before. The fact that a tight valve guide could still be a cause. You can remove the valve springs one at a time and verify that each have the needed clearance. You should be able to feel the stem shake in the clearance.
Sorry the lifter preload didn't cure it.
Sorry the lifter preload didn't cure it.
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
One of many highpoints for me personally at the rallye this past weekend was finally having a face-to-face with Jesse (along with many other friends from the electronic binder world!). We had another long discussion regarding this motor issue and now Jesse has a plan to continue doing the diagnostics. He will win in the end and we'll all be able to add to our personal knowledge bases!
I fully satisfied that Jesse has taken all advice to heart and is fully able to follow through in a logical manner. Once he's done the hammer handle drill, then he's gonna do a rudimentary cam lobe lift verification using a dial indicator. That will be a qa check on the cam and either rule it in or out as root cause.
The possibility of a valve "hanging" in the guide is certainly something that needs further investigation also. And...after a discussion, we now need to look at "installed/assembled" valve stem height both when cold and once at full operating temp when the noise is present. He's not convinced that the shop that did the heads paid close attention to that area and due to the design of the IH valve actuation assembly, that is a super-critical dimension (though not any more so than most non-adjustable hydraulic lifter engines).
I've noticed in many cases of diagnosing the non-oiler motors that were hanging valves due to non-lubrication (related to grunged rocker shaft assemblies), you could actually do a visual on the hanging valve once identified as it began to randomly stick in the guide, and that of course resulted in a momentary change in idle quality you could hear and had a vacuum gauge been installed, could most definitely see.
I agree, this is a very strange anomaly in building one of these motors and I'm convinced it's been very carefully assembled with appropriate attention to detail. Jesse has already gone for more deeply into diagnostics than any commercial machine shop/engine builder would accept responsibility for.
Since we/re staying down here in the ihon world for another week+, it might be possible for me to pay Jesse a service call if it would help, though I don't have my "non-oiling sv motor tool set" with me this trip.
I fully satisfied that Jesse has taken all advice to heart and is fully able to follow through in a logical manner. Once he's done the hammer handle drill, then he's gonna do a rudimentary cam lobe lift verification using a dial indicator. That will be a qa check on the cam and either rule it in or out as root cause.
The possibility of a valve "hanging" in the guide is certainly something that needs further investigation also. And...after a discussion, we now need to look at "installed/assembled" valve stem height both when cold and once at full operating temp when the noise is present. He's not convinced that the shop that did the heads paid close attention to that area and due to the design of the IH valve actuation assembly, that is a super-critical dimension (though not any more so than most non-adjustable hydraulic lifter engines).
I've noticed in many cases of diagnosing the non-oiler motors that were hanging valves due to non-lubrication (related to grunged rocker shaft assemblies), you could actually do a visual on the hanging valve once identified as it began to randomly stick in the guide, and that of course resulted in a momentary change in idle quality you could hear and had a vacuum gauge been installed, could most definitely see.
I agree, this is a very strange anomaly in building one of these motors and I'm convinced it's been very carefully assembled with appropriate attention to detail. Jesse has already gone for more deeply into diagnostics than any commercial machine shop/engine builder would accept responsibility for.
Since we/re staying down here in the ihon world for another week+, it might be possible for me to pay Jesse a service call if it would help, though I don't have my "non-oiling sv motor tool set" with me this trip.
Last edited:
Jesse B.
Member
I tried the hammer handle trick and I did not notice any difference between the lifters. They all seem to take an equal amount of force to collapse.
I also installed valve covers with the top sections cut out. The problem with this is that when I rev the engine past 2000 rpm, the boat style rockers throw hot oil all over the place. This wasn't a problem with the welded style because the oil is pumped through the rocker to the valve tip and pushrod. The boat style rockers act like cups that collect a lot of oil at idle. When you rev the engine past about 2000 rpm, the force of the rocker coming up to open the valve literally throws about a teaspoon of oil out of each rocker all over the engine compartment. Multiply this by 16 and you have got a mess on your hands. I stopped before it got out of hand, but this has put the kibosh on more testing in my driveway. I could put duct tape over the openings, but it doesn't stick so well to oil.
Due to the elimination of many other variables, I'm leaning toward a sticky valve/tight valve guide. But in order to fix this, the head has to come off, then disassembled, the offending valve guide has to be honed, then reassembled and installed. Not a big job, but after much thought, I have decided to go in a different direction. Most everyone at some point has to make a decision to either fish or cut bait, and since I don't see a point to this anymore, I'm cutting bait.
I've decided to install a Chevy crate engine, which is what I should have done in the first place.
the engine I am looking at is fuel injected, weighs 300 pounds less than my 392, and produces more horsepower and torque at all rpms. I can't turn my back on that. I'll also be dumping the torqueflite (I'm tired of trying to adjust shift points), and replacing it with an nv4500.
Don't be me wrong, I love my Scout, but I just don't have the time or the patience to go through this 35-year-old-800-pound-fickle-gorilla again. I do sincerely appreciate everyone's assistance.
Parts from this engine (dui, powder coated aluminum intake manifold and valve covers, etc.), or the engine, will be available after I remove it in a month or two.
I also installed valve covers with the top sections cut out. The problem with this is that when I rev the engine past 2000 rpm, the boat style rockers throw hot oil all over the place. This wasn't a problem with the welded style because the oil is pumped through the rocker to the valve tip and pushrod. The boat style rockers act like cups that collect a lot of oil at idle. When you rev the engine past about 2000 rpm, the force of the rocker coming up to open the valve literally throws about a teaspoon of oil out of each rocker all over the engine compartment. Multiply this by 16 and you have got a mess on your hands. I stopped before it got out of hand, but this has put the kibosh on more testing in my driveway. I could put duct tape over the openings, but it doesn't stick so well to oil.
Due to the elimination of many other variables, I'm leaning toward a sticky valve/tight valve guide. But in order to fix this, the head has to come off, then disassembled, the offending valve guide has to be honed, then reassembled and installed. Not a big job, but after much thought, I have decided to go in a different direction. Most everyone at some point has to make a decision to either fish or cut bait, and since I don't see a point to this anymore, I'm cutting bait.
I've decided to install a Chevy crate engine, which is what I should have done in the first place.
the engine I am looking at is fuel injected, weighs 300 pounds less than my 392, and produces more horsepower and torque at all rpms. I can't turn my back on that. I'll also be dumping the torqueflite (I'm tired of trying to adjust shift points), and replacing it with an nv4500. Don't be me wrong, I love my Scout, but I just don't have the time or the patience to go through this 35-year-old-800-pound-fickle-gorilla again. I do sincerely appreciate everyone's assistance.
Parts from this engine (dui, powder coated aluminum intake manifold and valve covers, etc.), or the engine, will be available after I remove it in a month or two.
Attachments
Michael Mayben
IHPA Tech Moderator - Retired & No Longer Online
We know this is a frustrating situation Jesse.
I really wish I could spend a day with you and the motor and work through this, there is a simple explanation for the noise but homing in is a very time-consuming process and you have already put maximum effort into analysis.
So since you have decided to cut bait...I know that ihon/Jeff would make ya a deal to take this motor off your hands. It will then be fully analyzed and we will determine what's going on.
If interested, don't start parting it out...call Jeff and yawl negotiate a deal.
Kathy and I will be back down here around xmas-time to hopefully begin the move to the new shop in Grass Valley, we can play with the motor then if it's still a runner by setting up on a test stand.
I really wish I could spend a day with you and the motor and work through this, there is a simple explanation for the noise but homing in is a very time-consuming process and you have already put maximum effort into analysis.
So since you have decided to cut bait...I know that ihon/Jeff would make ya a deal to take this motor off your hands. It will then be fully analyzed and we will determine what's going on.
If interested, don't start parting it out...call Jeff and yawl negotiate a deal.
Kathy and I will be back down here around xmas-time to hopefully begin the move to the new shop in Grass Valley, we can play with the motor then if it's still a runner by setting up on a test stand.
Jesse,
sorry to hear that you're throwing in the towel so to speak on this 392. As michael mentioned I am interested in obtaining this engine from you in its complete form as I would like to continue the diagnosis of the lifter problem.
sorry to hear that you're throwing in the towel so to speak on this 392. As michael mentioned I am interested in obtaining this engine from you in its complete form as I would like to continue the diagnosis of the lifter problem.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Jesse,
if possible could you send that adjustable push rod I lent you to Jeff??
He would like a set and the one you have will get him half way.
Thanks.
if possible could you send that adjustable push rod I lent you to Jeff??
He would like a set and the one you have will get him half way.
Thanks.
Jesse B.
Member
It's not so much that I'm throwing in the towel as I am deciding to go in a different direction with the whole truck. I had figured that if I stayed with IH equipment, I could accomplish my goals. Sadly, I don't think this is true for me any longer. I've gradually accepted the fact that the IH equipment is subject to some inherent and inescapable limitations.
No matter what I do, that 392 is going to weigh almost 800 pounds, which is 300 (in some cases 400) more than a sb Chevy that can produce more power. When you are wheeling, an extra 300 pounds over your front axle does not make climbing over things easier.
If I attach the Chevy to the IH torqueflite, I'll always be limited to three speeds. This limits the gears I can put in my axles and still drive the thing on the highway and not turn it into a trailer queen. If I go with a newer transmission, I get an overdrive that removes this limitation.
If I run all this to the stock 44 axles, and larger tires, it will only be a matter of time before I start breaking them.
So I think it is time for me to recognize the limitations I am running into, or will run into, and just choose a whole new direction to avoid them before I get any further into this thing.
When I have the time, after I remove the engine, I'll either tear it down or part it out. Whether I do one or the other will depend upon how much time I have available. Fixing it is not the problem. The oiling system (as poor as it is) in an IH block is not complicated, it's just fickle. The 392 will run again, in one form or another, just not in a vehicle of mine.
(edit: yes Robert, I'll get that pushrod to Jeff. I do still want to measure the driver's bank preload, so it might be a week or so before I can get it to him.)
No matter what I do, that 392 is going to weigh almost 800 pounds, which is 300 (in some cases 400) more than a sb Chevy that can produce more power. When you are wheeling, an extra 300 pounds over your front axle does not make climbing over things easier.
If I attach the Chevy to the IH torqueflite, I'll always be limited to three speeds. This limits the gears I can put in my axles and still drive the thing on the highway and not turn it into a trailer queen. If I go with a newer transmission, I get an overdrive that removes this limitation.
If I run all this to the stock 44 axles, and larger tires, it will only be a matter of time before I start breaking them.
So I think it is time for me to recognize the limitations I am running into, or will run into, and just choose a whole new direction to avoid them before I get any further into this thing.
When I have the time, after I remove the engine, I'll either tear it down or part it out. Whether I do one or the other will depend upon how much time I have available. Fixing it is not the problem. The oiling system (as poor as it is) in an IH block is not complicated, it's just fickle. The 392 will run again, in one form or another, just not in a vehicle of mine.
(edit: yes Robert, I'll get that pushrod to Jeff. I do still want to measure the driver's bank preload, so it might be a week or so before I can get it to him.)
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Jesse,
I'm with you here, don't screw with the tf. 4 speeds and a converter clutch will probably yield 3-4 mpg on the highway if you retained the sv. Try for 4l60e and not a 700r4. I believe the FI GM you mentioned can control the e shift hydromatic(4l60e).
I'm with you here, don't screw with the tf. 4 speeds and a converter clutch will probably yield 3-4 mpg on the highway if you retained the sv. Try for 4l60e and not a 700r4. I believe the FI GM you mentioned can control the e shift hydromatic(4l60e).
Jesse,
just to verify you are not entertaining the idea of selling me the engine in its complete form? I sure hate to see this engine torn apart. Quite a bit of time has been spent trying to help you diagnose the problem and to tear it down before we can confirm the problem seems like in the end a bunch of wasted time. Hopefully you won't be rubbed wrong by my statement.
Jesse B.
Member
Not rubbed wrong at all Jeff. I'm happy to hear someone actually wants some old IH stuff. (I had trouble giving away nearly everything I brought to the rallye! In fact, some people May have noticed when they got home I had left a surprise for them in the backs of their scouts....
) I haven't made any hard decisions on what to do with the engine. Right now I need the truck to help me move into a new house, and once that is done, I'll figure out what to do with the engine. I would prefer though to have that discussion with you in person, rather than on the forum.
And in response to Robert's suggestion of the 4l60e, you are right the 4l60e is the better way to go, but those tranny pans do not leave a lot of space on the passenger side to run a front driveline. I always wanted a manual, so I am wiping the slate clean and starting all over with an nv4500. Thanks,
) I haven't made any hard decisions on what to do with the engine. Right now I need the truck to help me move into a new house, and once that is done, I'll figure out what to do with the engine. I would prefer though to have that discussion with you in person, rather than on the forum. And in response to Robert's suggestion of the 4l60e, you are right the 4l60e is the better way to go, but those tranny pans do not leave a lot of space on the passenger side to run a front driveline. I always wanted a manual, so I am wiping the slate clean and starting all over with an nv4500. Thanks,
Jesse B.
Member
Well, after waiting about a full year to tear into this engine again, I have an update. I wasn’t able to much for the past year because I bought a new house and this has a way of depleting ones bank account, but a couple months ago, I had the time and money to get back into it. I pulled the 392 out, not marking anything, because I fully expected to be putting a chevrolet back in. I had the engine, transmission, adapters, etc. All picked out. Once I had the 392 out, I took off the rear cam plate and this is what I saw.
Attachments
Jesse B.
Member
After the swearing stopped, I decided that since the engine was out, I might as well pull the cam out. And this is what I saw when I looked at the bearings. Note the babbit smeared up the sides of bearings 2-5. (I have removed the bearings and taped them to a stick so I could take a picture in the sunlight.)
Attachments
Jesse B.
Member
Note how only bearings #2, #3, #4, and #5 shown extreme wear. I called Robert k, emailed him the pictures, and after a couple more conversations, we figured that the problem was probably improperly finished cam journals. The only bearing that did not show extreme wear was #1, and that was the only journal that had a nice mirror finish to it. All of the other journals were rough. Here are a couple pics of the journals. Note the pitting on #2, #3, #4, and #5.
Attachments
Jesse B.
Member
This was a new cam from camcraft. When I got the cam from camcraft, I had noticed the lack of a mirror finish on journals #2, #3, #4, and #5, but they had a good reputation, so I put the cam in anyway. It’s easy to say now I shouldn’t have done it. One of the most frustrating things about building a vehicle is that it seems about half of the stuff you buy brand new is still junk.
After a lot of thought, I decided to try a new cam, lifters, and bearings, rather than go straight to the Chevy. I bought a new competition cams 252h cam, comp lifters, and durobond bearings. I put it all back together, installed the engine, primed the oil pump while rotating the engine, started it, and….no lifter noise.
I then drove it to the Sierra Fall Rallye and won best engine, best 1971-1975, and best in show.
I now have over 1600 miles on the engine and I have had no lifter noise other than an occasional very quiet ticking for the first few seconds at start up. Nothing like the cacophony of clacking that plagued the camcraft set up.
I figured that if I got past 1000 miles, I would know if I solved the problem, because it took about 1000 for it to show up on the camcraft setup. Since I now have 1600, I think it is safe to say the problem was a poorly finished camshaft. I changed nothing else.
I have sent the cam back along with the bearings to camcraft. I’m waiting to hear back if he is going to refund my money for the cam, lifters, and bearings.
I just thought I would post up and close the loop on this issue. Thanks for the help guys, especially Robert k.
After a lot of thought, I decided to try a new cam, lifters, and bearings, rather than go straight to the Chevy. I bought a new competition cams 252h cam, comp lifters, and durobond bearings. I put it all back together, installed the engine, primed the oil pump while rotating the engine, started it, and….no lifter noise.
I then drove it to the Sierra Fall Rallye and won best engine, best 1971-1975, and best in show.
I now have over 1600 miles on the engine and I have had no lifter noise other than an occasional very quiet ticking for the first few seconds at start up. Nothing like the cacophony of clacking that plagued the camcraft set up.
I figured that if I got past 1000 miles, I would know if I solved the problem, because it took about 1000 for it to show up on the camcraft setup. Since I now have 1600, I think it is safe to say the problem was a poorly finished camshaft. I changed nothing else.
I have sent the cam back along with the bearings to camcraft. I’m waiting to hear back if he is going to refund my money for the cam, lifters, and bearings.
I just thought I would post up and close the loop on this issue. Thanks for the help guys, especially Robert k.
now aren't you happy you didn't toss that 392 for a common 350? Makes all the difference in the world when you look under the hood.
Jesse B.
Member
I don't know if "happy" is how I would describe my thoughts, perhaps "relieved" fits better, but I am glad I stuck it out. It saved me a bundle of money I can now spend on other projects, like fuel injection. (and I know with a chevrolet in there I May have been tarred and feathered at the rallye.)
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Hello Jesse,
I hope the 392 is still happy... Sorry to dig up old bones but another member is going through some big cam bearing issues. I am investigating if bearing babbit hardness May be a problem..
I have a question for you. I see you installed durabond bearings the second time around. What were the original bearings that wiped?
I hope the 392 is still happy... Sorry to dig up old bones but another member is going through some big cam bearing issues. I am investigating if bearing babbit hardness May be a problem..
I have a question for you. I see you installed durabond bearings the second time around. What were the original bearings that wiped?
Jesse B.
Member
Hi Robert,
the 392 is still running fine. Unfortunately, I do not recall if I bought the first set of bearings and what brand they were. I know I did not install them. The machine shop did so because I did not have a bearing install tool. I might be able to go through my receipts and figure it out. I'll try tonight.
the 392 is still running fine. Unfortunately, I do not recall if I bought the first set of bearings and what brand they were. I know I did not install them. The machine shop did so because I did not have a bearing install tool. I might be able to go through my receipts and figure it out. I'll try tonight.
Jesse - my records show through the years I have sold you two sets of cam bearings about two years apart. Since I have always sold the durabond brand I'm going to assume that both sets that you used were this brand.
Robert Kenney
Super Moderator
Thanks guys!