C120 vs C1500 axles - conversion?

[overdrivesteve]

Hi,

I came across someone parting out a truck - I was told its a 65 IH c1500 4x4 with good 20 in tires but that its the same drive train as a c140. I have a c120 so my question is will these axles bolt directly to my truck with no fabrication, other than possibly a custom drag link and custom drive shafts?

Other than pictures, I've never seen a c140 or anything bigger and have no concept of actual sizes.
Fwiw I hope to buy the entire truck, as I'm sure other people here will want some of the other parts, but he's definitely agreed to sell the axles to me at this time if I want them.

The first three pictures are of other people's c140's and c1500 trucks. And the last two pictures are pictures of the actual axles.

Thank you for your help and advice.

Steve

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[87king]

Okay here is my take on the axles. Your rear in the c120 3/4 ton so hopefully a "ra15" IH made in house. Soo the ra 15 specs goes as is= they were 6 bolt bud wheels ihc 14015 single reduction 6 1/2 oil capacity weight rating of 7500 pounds. Typical rp 4.88 and then on up.

I have the list if you want off rp used.

Now the ra20 which would have been used on all 140 to 150 series looks really close same design and actually use the same third member guts but its specs are as is= ihc 14020 single reduction 61/2 oil capacity weight rating of 10000. The thirds are the same but the axles,housing and bearings and spindles were just bigger then the ra15 which is why people get them confused if they can swap parts they can not. But for the rp on these to they can intermix if needed. The ra20 would be a 5 bolt big bud wheels still hard to find just as the six and brake parts still hard to get but can be dealt with on either.

From the pics those front axles on the 140 and 150 should be a fa50 most common at least from 50 and 60s so specs= caster degrees should be from 2-3 degrees, camber 1 degree, toe in inch 1/16 to 1/8, kingpin inclination degrees 4. Hard to come by the boots but there out there for the knuckles.

What front axle is in your truck? Fa what?? Probably either a fa 10 or 15 would be my guess I have the specs for them il give you so you can compare the two to the fa50 setting it up for proper alignment and all. Want to get steering and alignment perfect to drive good!

The rear axle is simple as measure spring pad width to see if there the same and bolt on because they all had the same outlay just build bigger as they go even if you had a ra10 which is small it still should bolt up to the ra20 no problem. The ra15 and 20 are exactly the same on the outside so no worries between those two that would be a nice swap to do.

Are you rims 16 inch now? Will 20s fit?

Il get a better idea of the front swap when I know the fa number of yours but I bet they are so close there made to swap almost lol the spring pad spacing should even work I bet! Maybe just as easy as setting correct alignment and steering arms made. Drive shafts should go smoothly to.

Hope this helps man!

 

[overdrivesteve]

Wow, amazing info, thanks!! I'll be rereading it several more times when I get home from work tonight.

The wheels are 5 lug and include 6 wheels with 8.25 20 good tires, but don't know how old the tires are. They should fit as they don't look much bigger than the 16 in wheels on there now. There are 85k miles on the truck and last registered in 79, and only used as a farm feed truck, so I hope the brake drums are still good. He says everything on the truck works good except the engine will not run properly, and he's tired of working on it. So hopefully the pumpkins will not need anything other than new seals

here are a couple more close-up pics I just got - didn't want something heavily corroded with road salt rust. Do these pics provide any additional info?

This looks like an evolutionary step up from the old bellows type of axle knuckle to a Dana type of knuckle. Wonder if that leather bellows used on some axles is still available new, or only as a crispy 30 year old nos item.

What publications did you get that info from? Once connected properly to my truck, I plan to carefully rebuild everything from the knuckle on out to know it’s dependable, and will need the right service manuals.

Thanks again for the reply and info.

Steve

p.s. I'll take some pics of my truck and post after I get off work later tonight. That will help explain why I must go to a different, larger axle style than the Dana 44 I have on there now.

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[overdrivesteve]

okay here is my take on the axles. Your rear in the c120 3/4 ton so hopefully a "ra15" IH made in house. Soo the ra 15 specs goes as is= they were 6 bolt bud wheels ihc 14015 single reduction 6 1/2 oil capacity weight rating of 7500 pounds. Typical rp 4.88 and then on up.

I have the list if you want off rp used.

...

Hi,
you're correct, my truck has the 6 lug wheels, but don't know if they are bud, as I don't know exactly what makes a wheel a budd. Mine are not dually on my travelette, but are single wheels. And I think you are correct about my rear axle being a IH ra15 as my axle has the round cover housing and not the formed cover of a Dana, or at least that's how I tell the difference. Can anyone verify this by the first 2 pics below?

Yes, please post or pm the list of rp's used!

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[QUOTE="87king, post: 70471, member: 5993"]
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now the ra20 which would have been used on all 140 to 150 series looks really close same design and actually use the same third member guts but its specs are as is= ihc 14020 single reduction 61/2 oil capacity weight rating of 10000 . the thirds are the same but the axles,housing and bearings and spindles were just bigger then the ra15 which is why people get them confused if they can swap parts they can not . but for the rp on these to they can intermix if needed . the ra20 would be a 5 bolt big bud wheels still hard to find just as the six and brake parts still hard to get but can be dealt with on either .
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The rear axle is simple as measure spring pad width to see if there the same and bolt on because they all had the same outlay just build bigger as they go even if you had a ra10 which is small it still should bolt up to the ra20 no problem. The ra15 and 20 are exactly the same on the outside so no worries between those two that would be a nice swap to do.
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[/quote ]

I'm concerned, what if its the next size up from a ra20 ? can you tell by pics ? it is a big 5 lug, 20 in wheel . and the truck has the big rockwell t223 type transfer case, or whatever the IH equivalent for that year was and not the np 202 or 205 . the frame is not the same as my 3/4 ton travelette, but the width might be .

I can deal with finding brake parts, even drums if necessary .

here's another, better picture of the rear axle I plan to buy . I asked why his first pic of the rear did not have duals and he said because the truck was moved by trailer recently and one wheel on each side had to be removed to fit on the trailer .

[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20745d1375960571-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-img_20130719_183252_237.jpg[/img ]
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[QUOTE="87king, post: 70471, member: 5993"]
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what front axle is in your truck ? fa what ?? probably either a fa 10 or 15 would be my guess I have the specs for them il give you so you can compare the two to the fa50 setting it up for proper alignment and all . want to get steering and alignment perfect to drive good !
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Are you rims 16 inch now? Will 20s fit?
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[/quote ]

I believe I have a Dana 44 in front, not an fa 10 or 15 . can you verify by the pics below ? also note, there is a real lack of front suspension compression movement available - less than 2 inches before the tie rod hits the oil pan . this is partly caused by the deep 9 quart oil pan (7 in oil filter hanging down, not low mounted engine), partly by old, flat springs, and possibly by something else, but no idea what that might be, or what the po could have done to the truck . any ideas about this lack of suspension travel, anyone ?

I see the only fix as new springs, and a heavy duty axle with the tie rod on the drive shaft side of the axle, like what I plan to use from this donor truck .

the wheels and tires should fit ok . worse case scenario, I May only be able to run one tire on the rear, depending on fender clearance, like the second red truck at the top of this thread, but that is ok with me .

[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20746d1375960746-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-set_7a-260.jpg[/img ]
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[QUOTE="87king, post: 70471, member: 5993"]
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hope this helps man![/quote ]

that has helped tremendously, thank you !

steve

 

[87king]

Great pics man cleared up allot of whats going on
bud wheels are nothing more then the manufacture/company, they produced most off the heavy and med duty steel wheels from our truck years, and the ones to use the odd lug patterns of the 6 by 7.25 and the 5 by 8. Are yours lock ring rims or split?

You 100 percent have a ra15 rear axle and being in your rig and considering the front axle your rp ratio is probably the 4.88 or if your lucky the the rare 4.30. Thats a perfect way to tell them apart all IH corporate axles use the drop out thirds with sheetmeteal backs.

The rp ratio for ra15 are 4.30 4.88 5.57 6.17 the ra20 were the same but my books don't show it being offered in the lower 4.30 ratio but could be swapped from a ra15

now here is were the wrench gets thrown in. The first picture of the rear axle in your top post is in fact a ra20 how do I tell? Look were the third member bolts to the axle housing see the top three bolts then a casting running to the pinion then another single bolt, another casting, single bolt, another casting then three bottom bolts like the top. Ra15 and ra20 thirds bolt on with 10 bolts to the housing. The third member looks almost like a somewhat spiderweb with the 6 castings that run out to the pinion like a web design.

Sooo now look at the new rear axle pic you got the pic with the duels on, notice the now 4 bolts on top of the third and the first casting down on the third runs straight across on top of the pinion not making a web shape anymore and the total bolt count being 12. Hmmm

see how the first pic matches with your axle right now that's in your truck, because the ra15 and 20s look the same and use the same thirds but now the pic off the axle to buy is not. So did he just send you a picture he found not knowing or is he trying to sell you a different axle then the first pic??I cant tell but the drum size looks different between the two possibly even but its hard to compare.

Anyway that axle in the pic would be a ra25 like you were worried about allital, specs ihc=14025 single reduction oil capacity 9 1/2 pints 13000 weight rating so its the next step above the ra20. Rp ratio would be limited to 5.57 6.17, I haven't found a 4.88 for it but I am checking with my buddy at fleet pride to see if it was offered! Luckily the ra25 still bolts the same as the ra20 on the truck and pinion yokes should be the same for both still. Hopefully the frame and spring width are correct is your only worry.

Standard rear axles on a 1400-1500 should be a ra20 but the option was to upgrade to the heavier ra25 on 1500 which was common for manure and rock trucks. Some small loadstars used them for a short time.

Brake parts can be worked around like you said and if the miles are correct the drums got plenty off meat left in them to were I wouldn't worry that's pretty low,slow miles put on her!

You have a fa15 by IH codes or a Dana 44 lol just in case here is the alignment specs for it, caster degrees 1/2, camber degrees 1 1/2, toe in inch 1/8 to 3/16, kingpin inclination degree 7 1/2

holy cow is it close to hitting the oil pan I would have to say the springs are past due by the backwards arch somewhat. I think IH used the same spring pad width from the 60s to 70s but I have no hard proof. If the fa50 and your fa15 measure the same spring width then your good to get new u bolts and bolt on. I am trying to see how you would adapt the steering. Luckily the arm from the steering box goes behind the axle right now already so that May be easier to adapt it to the fa50 behind axle steering to begin with. I don't think the pinion yokes are the same for the drive shaft part being they were a Dana design vs IH design but I May be wrong on that.

The only thing I see as being a negative for the swap is the rp ratio being sooooo sooo low, your top end speed will suffer but you'll be able to tow anything what transmission will you use? A nice 5 speed with low overdrive will help and being the bigger tires helps alital already! If you look on your axle now on top off the third member the rp ratio should be stamped somewhere underneath the oil so you can see how extreme the difference will be for you. Single tires will look cool like the red truck I think with 20s and all!

I think the behind steering is the way to go if you don't want a lift, how much clearance is between the side off the oil pan and the pumpkin right now?? Looks kinda close there two. Because the fa50 front will have the same size third member as the ra15/20 so will there be enough side clearance to fit the bigger third in there? It is allot more rounder and bulkerier lol

 

[overdrivesteve]

great pics man cleared up allot of whats going on
bud wheels are nothing more then the manufacture/company, they produced most off the heavy and med duty steel wheels from our truck years, and the ones to use the odd lug patterns of the 6 by 7.25 and the 5 by 8. Are yours lock ring rims or split?
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[/quote ]
hi,
the rims on my truck are lock ring, but I don't know about the rims on the other truck . any idea what they should be ? from my understanding of split rims, I've never seen an IH with split rims, only lock ring .

one of the first trucks I ever bought was a 49 Chevy 1 ton panel truck and it came with 3 different 17 in rims - one was a one piece rim, one was a 3 piece rim counting the lock ring, and two I call split rims because each rim consisted of only two pieces and depended on the pressure in the tire's tube to hold the rim together . if there was ever a blow-out on the freeway, I think that rim would have exploded apart . is my understanding of lock ring vs split rims correct ?

... Your rp ratio is probably the 4.88
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Now here is were the wrench gets thrown in. The first picture of the rear axle in your top post is in fact a ra20 how do I tell? Look were the third member bolts to the axle housing see the top three bolts then a casting running to the pinion then another single bolt, another casting, single bolt, another casting then three bottom bolts like the top. Ra15 and ra20 thirds bolt on with 10 bolts to the housing. The third member looks almost like a somewhat spiderweb with the 6 castings that run out to the pinion like a web design.

Sooo now look at the new rear axle pic you got the pic with the duels on, notice the now 4 bolts on top of the third and the first casting down on the third runs straight across on top of the pinion not making a web shape anymore and the total bolt count being 12. Hmmm

see how the first pic matches with your axle right now that's in your truck, because the ra15 and 20s look the same and use the same thirds but now the pic off the axle to buy is not. So did he just send you a picture he found not knowing or is he trying to sell you a different axle then the first pic??I cant tell but the drum size looks different between the two possibly even but its hard to compare.
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the only thing I see as being a negative for the swap is the rp ratio being sooooo sooo low, your top end speed will suffer but you'll be able to tow anything what transmission will you use ? a nice 5 speed with low overdrive will help and being the bigger tires helps alital already ! if you look on your axle now on top off the third member the rp ratio should be stamped somewhere underneath the oil so you can see how extreme the difference will be for you . single tires will look cool like the red truck I think with 20s and all !
...

I never actually calculated the rp ratio as I never intended to keep this axle set when I bought the truck a few months ago. But it drives and feels like its about a 4.88.

I had a little conversation with the elderly gentleman about his truck tonight. Apparently both of the little axle pics in my top post are not of the actual axles. But the two big close-ups of the front axle and the big pic of the rear with duals are of the actual axles. He does not own a camera and every time a "tire kicker" asked for a pic he had to have someone come over and take the picture for him. Because he initially thought I was just another "tire kicker" he got those two little axle pics from the internet somewhere and thought they were exactly like the axles he was selling. He has no idea what he actually has, only that it's a 6.17 ratio.

So that I can get this straight, the new front axle is a fa50 and uses the ra20 pumpkin, and the new rear axle is a fa? And uses the ra25 pumpkin, correct?

The ratio is 6.17 so it can only do about 45 mph. Fortunately I have a t34 IH 5 speed, with 0.82 overdrive 5th, but unfortunately its not installed. It's still waiting for me to pick it up. It has the bell housing, clutch, flywheel, shortened drive shaft that goes to the transfer case, and other parts. Someone was upgrading to an automatic so I got the complete 5 speed conversion setup. The trans in the truck with the big axles is a 4 speed.

What a great call and observation you had with those axle pics! !

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Holy cow is it close to hitting the oil pan I would have to say the springs are past due by the backwards arch somewhat. I think IH used the same spring pad width from the 60s to 70s but I have no hard proof. If the fa50 and your fa15 measure the same spring width then your good to get new u bolts and bolt on. I am trying to see how you would adapt the steering. Luckily the arm from the steering box goes behind the axle right now already so that May be easier to adapt it to the fa50 behind axle steering to begin with. I don't think the pinion yokes are the same for the drive shaft part being they were a Dana design vs IH design but I May be wrong on that.
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I think the behind steering is the way to go if you don't want a lift, how much clearance is between the side off the oil pan and the pumpkin right now ?? looks kinda close there two . because the fa50 front will have the same size third member as the ra15/20 so will there be enough side clearance to fit the bigger third in there ? it is allot more rounder and bulkerier lol[/quote ]

my truck was originally a snow plow truck in alaska . you can see pics of the heavy plow in the for free forum section of last December . one of the things I did when I first got my truck was to remove the snow plow . I'm sure over the years that made the front springs sag . not much need for a snow plow in los angeles lol .

if I'm lucky enough that the front spring leaves themselves on the donor truck are the same width as my springs, I'll just replace my entire spring pack .

the rear spring leaves look wider, but hopefully the frame is the same width so I can just replace everything from spring hangers to drive shaft .

the donor truck has manual steering, and my truck has manual steering, at this time . but ebay recently listed an old IH 3/4 ton 4x4 truck someone was parting out that has power steering . after careful research it was determined it is a direct bolt-on on my 62 IH with no frame drilling required, so I ordered it last week . so steering this bigger axle should be no problem, if, if I can connect it to this axle properly . I'm not sure what you mean by "behind steering" . do you just mean non-cross-over steering ? my first oil pan pic above shows the drag link - hopefully the big fa50 has the same type of knuckle arm drag link configuration .

my steering box, either manual or power, mounts outside the frame by the front bumper . not clear where it mounts on the donor truck . I hope I don't encounter something crazy, such as where I turn the steering wheel one way and the wheels turn the other . I'm not a steering expert so that's why I've been looking the past 6 months for a stock IH power steering setup for my truck, until this one on ebay appeared .

my two biggest concerns with this conversion are the axle spring pads won't line up with the truck's springs, and will have to be cut off and rewelded, and/or there will be a problem with the steering .

I think the fa50 axle housing will fit ok . there are several inches between the axle housing and oil pan now, just not the tie rod . and with the lift of a thicker spring pack, I think, I hope that clearance will be ok with the larger axle .

the detailed info you have provided is appreciated, I owe you one .

thanks .

steve

 

[87king]

Glad I could catch it myself! Lol I didn't want to think the seller was trying to trick you but I was nervous off what was happening but at least he cleared that up

the donor truck should have lock ring like yours so there are the "safer"style rim and I don't mind them at all. The other type off rim is called a daytona, this is one of the other type of a true split rim and more dangerous, heavy IH I think mostly loadstars and over the road haulers had them, people refer to them as spider or widow rims because it used nuts and wedges to hold the two together and to the spider part that goes on the spindle. But that was 5 ton up stuff I think.

Sorry the long posts get confusing lol yes the front is a fa50 IH axle and uses the same ra20/15 third member style and the rear is a ra25 which is what the whole axle is called. Third member and housing from the ra25 are its own family and don't interchange with any others.

Whew a 5 speed with that overdrive will make it sweet!!! That's a perfect combo for hauling and cruising, that's what id like to build on a another truck someday. Lol I am going to look up that tranny with that rp to see what rpm to speed would be lol

that fa50 front axle is pretty common on big IH trucks and military trucks along time ago, so parts are out there. Right next door to my grampas in chino valley a guy repairs military vehicles and sells them, so I called him up and asked about those boots for it, ouch ha said there about 380 but he might be able to make me a template to make your own so I could send to you so you don't have to fork that over! He runs into the boot thing allot I guess and he makes his out off a leather. Might want to look into that.

I am betting the springs are 2 1/2 wide, I think that was standard across the board mostly. Yeah that's what I meant your right its the knuckle arm drag link style I know that was really popular from all the IH trucks and t-alls iv seen, most have the ross cam and lever design, old styles were just cam and twin lever and newer ones were either twin lever units with roller mounted studs or single lever gear units with roller studs.

How does the power steering box compare to those types or what model off box is it??, my book lists allot off different ones used but all look similar and I am not to familiar with fancy power steering so id like to learn about them and compare them to manual boxes.
I wish the donor truck pic was a bit higher to see the drag arm but I wouldn't be shocked to see the exact same setup as you have with he steering box up front and outside the frame rail sense that's all iv ever seen even and those ross boxes have to mounted that way because the side pitman arm forces it to be setup like that on any axle. It will just be larger off coarse! Sense the donor truck is manual steering my bet is its going to be a ross box so the steering should be correct left to right and a simple swap maybe just custom drag arm length will do it.

If you use the donor truck springs then you will have plenty off clearance, that snowplow definitely did it in lol besides spring spacing this could be smooth as butter lol that and the front drive shaft yoke conversation maybe.

Anytime man hope you don't mind my long boring posts hahah
il try to help with anything I can for you, IH folks is family to me lol

 

[overdrivesteve]

...
the other type off rim is called a daytona, this is one of the other type of a true split rim and more dangerous, heavy IH I think mostly loadstars and over the road haulers had them, ... it used nuts and wedges to hold the two together and to the spider part that goes on the spindle .
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Sorry the long posts get confusing lol
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Yes I've seen those rims on big trucks, just did not remember what they were called. Fortunately my donor truck does not use them. I never thought of them as split rims before. So true split rims on trucks less than 5 tons are, in fact, 2 piece rims that don't use a lock ring, correct?

And I like long posts - the longer the better in my book as that's how I learn. and if anyone else has any comments, please jump in. I want to learn this stuff.

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whew a 5 speed with that overdrive will make it sweet !!! that's a perfect combo for hauling and cruising, that's what id like to build on a another truck someday . lol I am going to look up that tranny with that rp to see what rpm to speed would be lol
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[/quote ]

I've attached a pdf that lists the diameters of old style truck tires . so it appears my donor's tires, 8.25 x 20, are 37 to 38 inches in diameter . I've seen bigger tires used on lesser axles in truck builds, so I hope that should do well off road as well as on the freeway to get to the off road trails and camping spots . what site do you recommend to calculate rpm's, speed, etc of my proposed project ? the t34 has 6.21, 3.43, 1.81, 1.0, and 0.82 with 6.09 reverse . and the 2-speed transfer case offers double the selections . my 7.50 x 16 inch wheels do ok on the freeway, but it feels like it needs one more gear now .

and that brings up another big question, which transfer case should I use ? my travelette has a np202 transfer case . this was the older, big brother to the NP205 with bigger, stronger gears, bearings and shafts than the NP205 . and the donor truck has a rockwell t223, or whatever the IH equivalent was in 65 . the advantage of the t223, as I understand as I've never seen one in person, is that it has lowered outputs for both the front and rear drive shafts so there is less drive line angle to contend with . and the disadvantage is the size and weight of the transfer case . here's the pic of the rear of my transfer case:
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And here's the pic of the rear of the donor's transfer case. Note how much lower the rear output is in relation to the input. The pto shaft next to it is from the 4 speed trans.
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[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/test-forum/20518d1373651792-picture-test-65_xfer_case.jpg[/img ]
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In an ideal world, where I had a shop, or yard for working on such projects, I would pull the cab off the donor truck, put my engine and 5 speed in the donor, then set my travlette cab and bed on the donor's frame.

If anyone in southern calif has the space and would be interested in helping with such a project, please send me a pm. What you'll get is a complete running truck, but no bed, with good c120 drive train, donor's cab and if you help install my 5 speed, an extra 4 speed with pto, parking brake, bell housing, etc. You also get my help to get your free truck running dependably. Both trucks presently have a 304 v8 and 4 speed. Everything is open to negotiations.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. What are your recommendations concerning the transfer case - keep the np 202 or install the t223?

[QUOTE="87king, post: 70506, member: 5993"]
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that fa50 front axle is pretty common on big IH trucks and military trucks along time ago, so parts are out there . right next door to my grampas in chino valley a guy repairs military vehicles and sells them, so I called him up and asked about those boots for it, ouch ha said there about 380:frown2: but he might be able to make me a template to make your own so I could send to you so you don't have to fork that over ! he runs into the boot thing allot I guess and he makes his out off a leather . might want to look into that .
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[/quote]

I don't think I need that boot, correct? If you look at the above big pics of the front axle, it looks like it's similar to the Dana style knuckle. If I needed a boot, the axle would look like the axle below, correct? Btw, are special seals, such as the knuckle wiper seal, available here, or from navistar International, or will all axle parts have to be obtained from outside sources?
[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/test-forum/18177d1355124130-picture-test-set_6b-016.jpg
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I like long posts, but I'm going to split my reply to your power steering comments into the next post as its late now and I need to be at work in a few hours .

thanks .

steve

 

[87king]

Hey steve, my dang computer muse died finally got a new one lol

yes that would be the definition off a true split rim, somehow over the years people have been getting lock-ring and split rims mixed up from whats the difference, and scarring people with the safety factor involved. Probably young uneducated kids haha lock ring rims and are still used today in allot of stuff.

Your axles from the swap will be excellent offroad you wont have to worry about tire size to hurting those axles really up to 44s. These axles put a Dana 70 to shame so you wont hurt them if you try, people just don't give them all the credit they are worth because brake hardware can get expensive and no aftermarket support but it isn't really need for stronger parts with axles already this strong.

gear ratio calculator This is what I use for calculating rpm and speed etc. So with 37 to do 65mph the motor will be turning at a tune off 2986 rpms which isn't bad at all considering our sv engines are made to turn that speed happily all day. In fact that's what my truck is almost with a 4 speed 4.88 and 32s my numbers are 3359 at 65 so your in excellent shape,it will just come down to how big of tires you can stuff under your rig?? The freeway is defiantly do able to cruise around in just not in a hurry off coarse but not super slow either and id be happy with those numbers for your truck if it were me

glad you brought up the t cases, if you were thinking about useing that heavy t223 it can be done but I wouldn't consider it here is why.
True the t223 is bigger, stronger to a point and true IH heavy iron, and does have lower outputs but they are getting so rare that the prices are crazy high a mean silly high if you need parts for them and hard to locate, even seals are hard to get and numbers have to be crossreferneced. Parts and replacements are why I wouldn't use it. Rebuild kits are like $1000 alonethe 221 had a weak housing back and I don't know if it plagued the 223s or not. It will have more vibrations at freeway speeds then the 202 will have because the shear weight internally and cast components. They were used in Ford,chev big trucks and oilfields

the 202 is solid as a rock and is a great medium duty tcase. These get ran hard by mudders and rock crawlers brutally and still have lesser failure rate then most tcases made!! It has the same reduction as the t223 does so gearing isn't a factor. The 202 is a simple lighter but still strong design and parts are out there for it. Some parts interchange from 201 to 205 range, plus it doesn't hang down so low like the 223 will. There also allot more common to come by and seals are just parts counter away along with bearings and such.

If your not going to lift it much the drive line angle shouldn't be a factor really, with your longish wheelbase even a decent size lift shouldn't make the angles to harsh were you would have to worry about lower outputs I wouldn't think. You have a good non leaking 202 so id stick with it, might want to twin stick it, its kinda fun and sometimes helpful offroad plus neutral runs the pto gear in the 202 forward or reverse depending what you put the tranny in making it perfect for a winch setup. I think you will be happier with the 202 then that 223 in the long run but I am alital biased toward np tcases myself.

That front axle does have a outer seal it looks like so no boot needed whew, it has a two piece plate that bolts on around the axle bell/knuckle and usually has a rubber seal and a felt wiper, like a Dana closed knuckle style. Maybe IH parts sells them or can get them but I don't wanna list anything unless they don't carry them for business wise. You'll need the axle seal and hub grease seal also.

Man if you were closer id help you in a heart beat but if there's anything I can do from az let me know il be glad to. Darn everything's over in CA so far way lol

 

[overdrivesteve]

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most have the ross cam and lever design, old styles were just cam and twin lever and newer ones were either twin lever units with roller mounted studs or single lever gear units with roller studs .
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I have no idea what you are talking about here, but I'd sure like to learn. Can you please post some example pics of what you are referring to.
Thanks.

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I wish the donor truck pic was a bit higher to see the drag arm but I wouldn't be shocked to see the exact same setup as you have with he steering box up front and outside the frame rail sense that's all iv ever seen even and those ross boxes have to mounted that way because the side pitman arm forces it to be setup like that on any axle . it will just be larger off coarse ! sense the donor truck is manual steering my bet is its going to be a ross box so the steering should be correct left to right and a simple swap maybe just custom drag arm length will do it .
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I sure hope all it needs is a custom drag link coupling.

And unrelated, I've never seen a brake line attach under the wheel cylinder like that. This will be an interesting conversion as I'm always fascinated learning about the engineering/application of old heavy duty technology.

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how does the power steering box compare to those types or what model off box is it??, my book lists allot off different ones used but all look similar and I am not to familiar with fancy power steering so id like to learn about them and compare them to manual boxes .
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I am not an IH expert, and especially not a steering expert, power or manual. All I can talk about is what I've learned as it applies to converting my truck and other similar 60's IH pick up trucks to power steering. Others will have to jump in and correct me where I'm wrong.

First, from my standpoint, many different boxes could be used if, if you have a shop with fabrication abilities. However, I do not, and any fabrication necessary I pay top retail for, so it is important I keep things stock, direct bolt-in as much as possible.
That said, here is what I have learned re converting my 62 c120 4x4 travelette to power steering:

first, if you have a 4x4, a 2x4 power steering box/setup will not be a direct bolt-in. So if you have a 4x4, you need a 4x4 donor vehicle that has power steering. And if you have a pickup, a Travelall and Scout power steering box setup, even from a 4x4 will not be a direct bolt in. So it must come from another 4x4 pick-up.

Then you need the drag link, pitman arm, steering box, its mounting bracket, and of course the pump, pump bracket and hoses. Note the power steering mounting box bracket - critical for a direct bolt-in conversion. The manual boxes are mounted directly to the frame but the power steering boxes are mounted to a bracket that mounts to the frame.

The front of the frame on pickups from 61 to 74 are all drilled out exactly the same for the steering box, regardless if it was manual or power from the factory. However, the years 61 to 68, if power steering was installed, used the very rare ram assist which is the undesirable type of power steering - lots of hoses to leak, and the control valves have been un-rebuildable for more than 30 years now.

In 68 they used both, so either could be found. And the 74 IH pickup used a different type of steering box mounting bracket so it is also undesired as a direct bolt-in. So that leaves only 69 to 73 4x4 pickups as being the donor vehicles of choice for the power steering box and conversion upgrade for years 61 to 73.

However, it will require a custom-made drag link if the truck uses the small knuckle Dana 44 axle. Consequently I'm not going to install power steering into my truck until I install the larger axles.

Additionally, the one piece steering column used on trucks prior to 69 must be converted to accept the remote steering box. To keep everything stock inside the cab, the steering column in the engine compartment will have to be cut and what is called a steering column saver installed. Google "column saver" then click on images to see what that is. Then the standard GM collapsible steering wheel shaft with u-joints can be installed. The IH saginaw ps boxes use the same internal parts as GM, but I don't know which GM ps box, if any, is an exact IH replacement.

I don't know if this was any help in replying to your comments, but just thought I'd throw that out there in case anyone is considering an upgrade to power steering for their truck and don't have a shop available to fab custom mounts, etc.

I'll edit with some pics later next week.

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anytime man hope you don't mind my long boring posts hahah
il try to help with anything I can for you, IH folks is family to me lol[/quote ]

keep those long posts coming !
thanks for your help .

steve

 

[overdrivesteve]

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Your axles from the swap will be excellent offroad you wont have to worry about tire size to hurting those axles really up to 44s. These axles put a Dana 70 to shame so you wont hurt them if you try, people just don't give them all the credit they are worth because brake hardware can get expensive and no aftermarket support but it isn't really need for stronger parts with axles already this strong.
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glad you brought up the t cases, if you were thinking about useing that heavy t223 it can be done but I wouldn't consider it here is why ...

if your not going to lift it much the drive line angle shouldn't be a factor really, with your longish wheelbase even a decent size lift shouldn't make the angles to harsh were you would have to worry about lower outputs I wouldn't think ...

man if you were closer id help you in a heart beat but if there's anything I can do from az let me know il be glad to . darn everything's over in CA so far way lol[/quote ]

I intend to keep the same 20 in wheels and tires those axles have now . I think those will be an ideal size and style for my old truck . nice to hear those low axle numbers will still produce an acceptable freeway rpm .

and good to hear your comments on the transfer case . I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go with that . I've been trying to find info on them for awhile now . it seems the feedback I've read at pirate4x4 agrees with what you have said - the t221 blows apart easily and should be avoided, but the t223 is much stronger and will not self-destruct unless pushed hard with oversized tires or locker equipped axles . but its very expensive to service with hard to get parts, and many different models of it were made, so a parts donor 223 t case May not have the exact same parts internally . they almost seem to be custom made for each manufacturer .

I like that they are the strongest, and with outputs positioned lower, but serviceability is very important as it is the heart of the truck, and if it goes, the truck is stranded until repaired . the np202 is stronger than an NP205, with bigger, stronger gears, shafts and bearings, but I had no idea how rare parts or the serviceability of it was . I understood it was extremely rare and undesirable for that reason only . stronger than a NP205, which is no weakling, and serviceable, then I think I will stay with the np202, providing drive shaft angle is not an issue . I read somewhere the np202 was used in medium duty trucks with 1410 u-joint flanges .

I hope drive shaft angles will not be an issue . I don't intend to lift the truck any more than absolutely necessary . but I don't know how much will be necessary at this time . I suspect I will need to lift the truck at least as much as the pic of the red 4x4 at the top of this thread . and it could be I will need to replace my deep sump oil pan with a regular oil pan and pick-up for axle clearance reasons .

you've already helped me a lot, thanks .

steve

p.s . I wonder where I would ever find a pto or pto shims for that np202 case . it doesn't use the common 6 bolt pto connection . I've read they were unique to IH and some old dodge trucks, so they are extremely rare .

p.p.s . anyone know if they make a detroit locker for my front fa50 axle ? guess I'll have to check with Jeff . I used a detroit locker in my front Dana 70 some years ago and it worked out great, despite that everyone said you shouldn't run a locker in the front axle . I liked having power to both wheels when I locked the hubs, or power to either wheel if I locked just one hub.

 

[87king]

Hey steve, I haven't forget you just been so busy, I am now a official employee at napa!!!! So I am super excited and been busy with that lol
anyways you got the steering tech correct for fitment issues, now here is some off the manual box variations used on IH. The first photo is a ross cam and single lever steering gear, the 2nd is a ross twin lever unit with roller mounted studs** 3rd ross cam and twin lever steering gear 4th ross single lever gear unit with roller mounted stud**

take note off the roller mounted stud vs non versions

and 5th a blow up to help ya and 6th which is sort off a oddball ross worm and roller gear unit.

Now you say the IH was like the GM so that would make it a saginaw rotary valve box but if you had more info on the box your to use I could make sure of it.
My only question and it May or May not be possible but why not use a ross power steering box like the manual box? They have a built in concentric control valve and look similar to a ross single lever box"il post pics if you want" and also ross box with integral toggle type control valve also matches the ross single lever units. Also with these units there's no worry about having the ram or power assist that IH and g.m. Used that is now a pain. G.m. Had a ram assist I wonder if its similar to IH version for parts wise hmmm il look into it!

I only mention this because these are the same kind off boxes designs just modified for use in power steering apps. That way you wouldn't have to mess with the precious steering column mess and have a bracket for the power steering box. Those p.s. Boxes mount up right to the frame again just as the manuals. Those are what Ford used and I bet IH did to. There would be no need for the column saver at that point. Pics off the box used now would help me out

there are actually quite a few ross power steering boxes that fit close to the manual boxes and have the same insides that's why a pic would help pick which one could work and not have to worry about the rest beside the pump portion of things

defiantly 100 percent with the np202, hmmm there not terribly rare, any good napa guy should get you every bearing seal, there's not just labeled rebuild kits for them you got to get them piece by piece that's all, the output flanges are alital bit harder to come by but company's still have them to sell, yes they were offered in 1410 style and the 13s. Allot of people say the NP205 outputs can be used in the 202 but that's a myth, the 202s are way thicker and stronger and wont ride right in the case or bearing. But a company in cali will make you a output for the 202 to except any yoke style off your liking for like 150 a pop "hopefully they still do"

yes those ptos are around, the problem is the 10 bolt, braden made these ptos and are the only ones used for all of those years from the 50s to the 70s but there's not many out there because np 200 201 and 202 were the only thing with this pattern, no tranny or other t case had 10 bolt covers. Now allison makes a tranny with it but nobody's tried it and I don't have a pto to try the fitment to a allison around here concerning gears and backlash. The braden part number is ftd-7 in my books. They are around though just got to look real hard like our brake drums p.s. The pto shim for backlash is different gasket thicknesses so no actual shim used to set backlash. P.s chelsea might have made a pto for it but I have no evidence of it yet. Gonna call the guy at braden.

The tires will look good on your rig for sure, though a small lift May be needed I see haha either way you will have one super cool rig!!!

Yep there's lockers for the fa50s, because it uses the ra15/20 third member remember, that means there's a eaton style no spin locker out there, now we just got to find one for you, and it May be a pain finding one off those because everybody's took them all already I am not sure if it was ever a factory option by IH but it can be done with proper eye on assembly lol
I wish a had the spline count on hand of the axle shafts on the fa50 vs. The ra15/20 just to make sure but I am 99.9 they were the same count front to back, anyone know off hand? Anyone ahhh il call fleet pride sometime and get the count.

If IH parts can't get you seals,bearings,brake parts for the axles,t case,tranny let me know and we can go about that and il get you numbers but try with Jeff way before me for our community wise

sorry for the wait once again man

 

[overdrivesteve]

hey steve, I haven't forget you just been so busy, I am now a official employee at napa!!!! So I am super excited and been busy with that lol
anyways you got the steering tech correct for fitment issues,
....

Congratulations! They couldn't find a better man for the job.

I thought I had the fitment issues correct, but now I don't think so...

I just purchased the complete power steering system from a 1970 c1200 4x4. I thought it would attach to the frame with a bracket the same as my manual box, but apparently not.

The first 3 pics, after I cleaned off years of built-up grease and dirt, are the parts that arrived a couple days ago:

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http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20967d1377927344-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-set_7a-011.jpg[/img ]
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[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20968d1377927344-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-set_7a-110.jpg



Note the ps box bracket in the lower corner of the first pic. It has 4 holes attaching it to the frame. My manual box has 3 in a triangular configuration.

And here are pics of my manual steering box:

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http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20970d1377927502-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-set_7a-238.jpg[/img ]


it appears the manual box has two mounting holes that go through the manual box, its bracket and the frame . and the bracket has a third mounting bolt at the bottom point, forming a triangular attaching layout .

also note, the drag link, which they left attached to the top knuckle arm, is about twice as big and 1 inch longer than the stock drag link .
and the d44 knuckle arm is also about twice as beefy, but about the same length as my little d44 knuckle arm .
the power steering box is also a lot beefier than my manual box . somewhere I read these ps boxes are good for up to 1.5 ton trucks, so these components will all go well with the over-sized axles . but they also don't lend themselves well to converting my little d44 to power steering . so I'm not going to attempt it until I install the big axles .

but I am still going to attempt to have as much ready to install as possible so to try and keep axle swap and truck down time to a minimum . and to that end, if there is another ps box equally as strong, dependable and more direct for a bolt-in, I'm still interested .

finally, my steering column is a 1-piece assembly, see pics below, with the sector shaft running from the steering wheel to the inside of the steering box . I did not follow how you were saying I could reuse my old steering column . regardless, I've also ordered a two-piece steering column assembly from a 68 IH . see the pic below . so hopefully I can just add borgeson type steering shafts and ujoints to complete the steering assembly - and it will be collapsible on impact .

[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20971d1377927608-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-set_7a-208.jpg[/img ]
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[img]http://forums.IHPartsAmerica.com/attachments/axle-tech-questions/20972d1377927608-c120-vs-c1500-axles-conversion-100_2043_zpsd90f9708.jpg

I'm off to work now, so we'll talk later.
Thanks.
Steve